Author Topic: Race Setups (Read 23911 times)

eightball · « **Reply #45 on:** April 08, 2009, 07:20:33 PM »

Quote from: longstreet on April 08, 2009, 06:45:38 PM

not the same guys, they would equate to the oss. you may remove foot from your mouth now.

I know exactly what the series is there # 13 . I just meant you guys out west are a little behind the curve that's all . Who is the hot chassis builder out there now Conestoga ?

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CanadianRacingOnline.com · « **Reply #45 on:** April 08, 2009, 07:20:33 PM »

boas51 · « **Reply #46 on:** April 08, 2009, 08:53:02 PM »

Okay,what do you call set up then??When you do a "set up",what do you do to the car??Iam just asking,to clarifty things..."

i start at #2 (after evaluating #1, lmao)
check for proper suspension travel without binds, check for worn/damaged parts, check moment center, alignment, bump, ackerman, rear trailing arm and track bar locations/lengths.

any thing attached to the car, that swings through an arc, is part of geometry, including everything attached to the spindle, and differential.

i consider setup, springs, sway bar, shocks, crossweight, alignment, track bar........but it all overlaps.
for the most part, as long said, i consider anything you would readily adjust at the track part of setup.

eight,
i predict the ncats pole in toon will be 15 seconds, with over 1/2 the field slower than 15.5, west record is 14.98, "cascar" sportsman car with 8" tire.

i am available to help any ncats team that needs help at toon. i am even willing to rent my shop offer my services for the week between edmonton and stoon.

long, i just cut and pasted a mount on a R&D chassis!

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southernsponsor · « **Reply #47 on:** April 08, 2009, 10:21:53 PM »

give thompson one practice session and he will be in the 14's.

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CanadianRacingOnline.com · « **Reply #47 on:** April 08, 2009, 10:21:53 PM »

longstreet · « **Reply #48 on:** April 09, 2009, 09:43:03 AM »

i know what you did devon and the resources used, 8 ball have not figured out who you are yet, on second thought it does not matter.

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larue · « **Reply #49 on:** April 13, 2009, 07:50:18 PM »

Quote from: boas51 on April 08, 2009, 08:53:02 PM

Okay,what do you call set up then??When you do a "set up",what do you do to the car??Iam just asking,to clarifty things..."

i start at #2 (after evaluating #1, lmao)
check for proper suspension travel without binds, check for worn/damaged parts, check moment center, alignment, bump, ackerman, rear trailing arm and track bar locations/lengths.

any thing attached to the car, that swings through an arc, is part of geometry, including everything attached to the spindle, and differential.

i consider setup, springs, sway bar, shocks, crossweight, alignment, track bar........but it all overlaps.
for the most part, as long said, i consider anything you would readily adjust at the track part of setup.

eight,
i predict the ncats pole in toon will be 15 seconds, with over 1/2 the field slower than 15.5, west record is 14.98, "cascar" sportsman car with 8" tire.

i am available to help any ncats team that needs help at toon. i am even willing to rent my shop offer my services for the week between edmonton and stoon.

long, i just cut and pasted a mount on a R&D chassis!

Hey Boas51
Sorry for taking so long to reply,Just to clarify with you,iam not starting some pissing match with you,okay!Everyone has there own way of setting up their cars,i guess when you stated about geometry and set up,as 2 different things,i myself consider this as the same,But i do see where ur coming from now.
If iam setting up a car,that i've never worked on before,the first thing i do is plot the roll centres,to see where its at,then string the car,to see if its st8.Would love to have one of those lazer aligner,christmas list or when i win the lottery lol,then continue from there with the same items you mentioned.
You know yourself,that the fastest and consistent set up for 1 driver,will not work for everyone,due to your number 1 on your list,which btw,i completly agree.
If you got someone in the car,that cant tell the difference between tight and loose,sure makes your job,a little tougher,some racers will never have the ability to tell you what the car is doing.
Damm,take a look at nascar,you would think that with all the money and resources these guys have,it comes race day,and guess what,there car is not working....one of those things,that make you go hmmmmm.

Ps.How are things out west??

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boas51 · « **Reply #50 on:** May 18, 2009, 10:47:41 AM »

hey,
things are good out here, been busy, don't think i've been here since april 8th.
anyway, i take care of all the angles and lengths of any thing that controls the diff and spindle first and foremost.
moment/roll center is one of them, but i am not as concerned with the location of the r/c as i am with the camber curves. the only logical reason for being concerned about the location of the r/c is because it sets your camber curves.
read june article on racingparts.ca.
i previously asked where people set there toe out and why, and haven't got a response yet. it will be very reliant on bumpsteer and ackerman, which over 50% of the teams i work with didn't know.
there are too many things included in geometry to leave it as part of setup. and, it has to be right before any setup will work.
i am beginning to think a good setup will be fast with anybody that can wheel a car. i have run 2 cars at the front with the same setup, with 3 different drivers. gonna be 4 cars and 5 drivers come saturday! lol, i hope.

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Wesley_Motorsports · « **Reply #51 on:** August 12, 2009, 01:47:17 AM »

Hey guys,

I've not been logging on much these days, been way too busy with other things. Had a few minutes of downtime and surfing CRO. I've read through this read and saw some interesting ideas as to what's important in setups and what affects they have and the question of what's important to consider in race car preparation & setup.

Race cars are not rocket science. They simply will perform within given capabilities and rules, nothing more and nothing less. That same principle applies to the race car driver. A driver's ability to understand a cars abilities and translate those paramenters either improves or handicaps any changes made to a car's setup.

Already noted, I agree that preparation, logs and data collection are the prime components to improving a cars ability to perform. Tools are also a critical component to the success of both car and driver. Of all the tools to buy with very long term benefits two of them are tied, one being scales, the other being a caster / camber gauge. These are not cheap as has been pointed out, but by far, are the most valuable.

I read the posts about scales and other options to figure out weight. Race car scales are very valuable for other reasons, such as determining front / rear weight, left to right weight percentage and cross weight percentages based on spring loads at all four corners. This applies to FWD and RWD cars. Some chassis run better dewedged compared to others. Scales offer the ability to determine what each corners spring load are at your given cars weight, what impacts shims or load bolt pressure will have on setup.

I find them very valuable for determining fuel load rates for 3/8, 1/2, 5/8, 3/4 and full capacities and helps me determine what kind of weight distrubution I need to prepare for, given the type of race tracks we run at.

For those that run in a class where caster and camber have very limited amounts of adjustment allowed, the tool is still one of the most important to have in your toolbox. Accuracy of a given setup is what will help give the car a consistent feel and thus should translate into better confidence in the car which of course then finally translates into how the driver can push the car to its limits and should improve the success of that driver as well.

I read with some interest how some gave input as to what are the most important things for a team consider. I agree that all of them raised are important. But the top three are not really (in my opinion) the critical to success. What is important is notes, more notes and constant learning curves that racing has. Knowledge transfer from other sources such as competitors, factory support, etc, are all important. You can have a great race car driver but a crap car and nothing will improve if they don't understand each other. Vice versa, you can have a great car but if the driver lacks knowledge of what the car really has, it will probably affect the success of the driver and car.

I agree that roll center (or sometimes called Moment Center) and other chassis tuning abilities (bump steer, caster, camber, toe) are vital and critical. They are valuable setup components that oftent do not interchange with other race tracks. What works for one type of track perhaps will not work at another due to size, degree of banking, etc..

What I find is the most important thing to have at the top of the list however is the willingness to learn (driver, crew, setup crew,etc). That is fundementally the most important part. Everyone that's been involved in racing knows, it is not about just going out and buying a car and going as fast as it is capable of. It's figuring out how to compete with 10, 15, 30 or more other teams that are doing as much, more or less than you are willing to do.

Take our season this year. It's been horrific. We've chased motor problems, fuel issues, ignition system failures for most of the first half of the season. And then we finally got power, now the setup went to hell and a hand basket. After 3 setup configuration changes, we are finally on the right track with the #81 car. It's almost perfect. A few more tweaks and it should be a top contender everytime out. But we have to always keep our eyes wide open to ideas and setup problems that can and do arise. We chased our setup problems with tonnes of ideas and setup configurations. Nothing was working initially until we did a complete reset on the car. Last weekend we finally proved that we were overlooking some very simple setup things and identified those issues - and the results showed that we could finally run with the other teams.

What we learned on the #81 race car setup, we transferred to the #21 (which has had different engine problems right off the bat - but we hope to have those figured out right away). Right out of the box the car's setup was in the ball park, better than its ever had before. The learning curve and adjustments to any car have to be documented like everyone else has said here. Notes and records are a big part of any teams future success.

A few comments on some of the posts.

Camber - if the rules allow it, for sure, Camber is a big plus if the modifications can be allowed in your class of racing. Caster is also critical for race tracks that have very tight corners like Peterborough and Mosport. If you can dial those in, read tire wear and tire temps and log the info, that team will have a better opportunity to be successful compared to other teams that do not make logs and notes on race setups.

Caster is a big deal, don't ignore it.

The bigger the tire and longer the wheelbase of the car is, the tighter the accuracy of your toe settings need to be.

Check and recheck C/C/T before each race, it's a pain in the butt and takes time -but definitely a valueable investment in time if you want run up front.

Roll Center.

In a lot of cars you simply can't affect R/C as much as you want to try based on the cars class, design, and rules. The biggest influence on roll center is the Center of Gravity (C.G.) forces working based on R/C of the car. In my class, it's a sure way to either make a car fast or wreck into a wall..........Circle Track Magazine has some great past artices posted on their website on race car PREP and setup. Well worth reading!

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Wesley_Motorsports · « **Reply #52 on:** August 12, 2009, 07:35:54 PM »

Ryan,

Sometimes it is what it is. You can have the worst or best equipment in the world and still have a terrible season. We run with what we got and do our best. If it takes a while, so be it. I never said we have done a good job. We do continue to learn and try. Some cars do run headers red hot. Mine were very hold and thin from years of use. We had carb issues - even though new. We chased and chased to be sure.

Other seasons, I certainly haven't done well, learned a lot about tracks and how challenging it is. When you run a car on your own, it's always a challenge to keep pace with all the steps up the latter. This year is no different, but its still going upwards, even if it's one step up and two steps back down sometimes. Sometimes it can take 4 to 5 years to get half decent, let alone near the top. Other occassions it can be better.

If you're learning quicker than my team is, good for you. Based on your attitude though, I don't really care what you think though.

Doug

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Wesley_Motorsports · « **Reply #53 on:** August 12, 2009, 08:51:53 PM »

Ryan,

You have no idea of what you are talking about. My carbs ARE brand new, 4 of them in fact. I bought new distributors (3 of them), wires (4 sets), etc.etc, throughout the past 3 seasons. What we found - defective carbs, bad wires (right out of bloody box), bad lifters (new), so when stuff happens and you decide to make an opinion, I would suggest you do your homework first, which clearly you have not. Luck is apart of the game, and I certainly haven't had any lateley, but it will come.

Nothing is perfect, never will be. I have NEVER ever said that Fords are better than Chevrolet's. Find one post that states that I have ever said that. There are good and bad points to all engines and have always said so. Ford has longer connecting rod when directly compared, but that does not mean that a Chevrolet (or Dodge) doesn't have advantages too - such as the intake architecture. I have said I prefer to RUN a Ford. I've run AMC, Chrysler, Chev and Ford in the past.

I'm very proud of how Kim Mitchell has run the #81 and how we have presevered through bad, the ugly and some good. If it takes yet another season of learning, then that's what we'll do. If my #21 is sidelines due to funds, so be it, we'll keep trying. Tony Stewart's team blew up or wrecked 4 cars at Daytona this year and where is he now in the chase? I've blown up two motors during test sessions already and I'm STILL getting the car back together for the rest of the season. Other teams would have thrown in the towel by now. Other teams have burnt up engines too, and most come back and still try to make a go of it. I've raced my fair share and hope to race many more seasons. Some have been great, others disaster and that cycle will continue FOREVER and not just to my team, but many others. If you can be perfect out of the box and thus that's the only advice anyone should ever listen to, hey by all means go for it.

I stand by my advice on setup. To those that think that it's weak from a "weak" team, so be it. Oh and by the way, when have I ever said I am out there to win a championship? You ask any driver in my class that knows me and my peers will tell you what our goals are. I've posted them here before too. I'd like to see you run a two car race team and do it on your own with limited dollars and still try to make it every weekend. It's a humbling experience. By the way, what class do you run in?

Doug

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Wesley_Motorsports · « **Reply #54 on:** August 12, 2009, 09:19:19 PM »

You don't know what you're talking about, that much is clear. Some of the best in the business have looked at our carbs at the track, one was bad, the others were good. We did find the problems - both separate issues. We in fact were never lean by the carb. You obviously haven't seen the #81 run lately.

As for the two motors, we had a bad batch of connecting rods. You sure do have a one track mind about carburators!

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Wesley_Motorsports · « **Reply #55 on:** August 12, 2009, 09:49:53 PM »

Whatever you say Mr. Day...... you are the man to listen too...

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larue · « **Reply #56 on:** August 21, 2009, 02:51:59 PM »

Welcome to mr. ross evans,cant race very good,but sure can talk!!!

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ernie · « **Reply #57 on:** August 21, 2009, 04:24:07 PM »

Quote from: Ryan.Day on August 21, 2009, 03:58:25 PM

Quote from: larue on August 21, 2009, 02:51:59 PM
Welcome to mr. ross evans,cant race very good,but sure can talk!!!

ï¿½In a lot of ways I feel sorry for him,(Larry)ï¿½ Ross said. ï¿½I hate that he lives in such an angry place. To be so mad about something so small ï¿½ it must be miserable to live like that. Thatï¿½s just not the way I live my life. Iï¿½m very blessed to have great parents that raised me to be a very different person. Iï¿½m in a great position there and Iï¿½m very lucky that way that I was raised differently.ï¿½

Ok ryan / ross / whoever. Don't use one of my posts to further your evil fued $:-\$

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ernie · « **Reply #58 on:** August 21, 2009, 05:32:18 PM »

Quote from: Ryan.Day on August 21, 2009, 05:22:58 PM

Quote from: ernie on August 21, 2009, 04:24:07 PM
Ok ryan / ross / whoever. Don't use one of my posts to further your evil fued $:-\$

Sorry Ernie, it just made such good fuel for it, I couldn't resist.Â

To tell you the truth I had a refence to you and Larue when I first posted it but then thought better of it. It's all fun and games until someone's mother gets involved

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ernie · « **Reply #59 on:** August 21, 2009, 07:31:43 PM »

Quote from: Ryan.Day on August 21, 2009, 06:08:03 PM

Quote from: ernie on August 21, 2009, 05:32:18 PM
To tell you the truth I had a refence to you and Larue when I first posted it but then thought better of it. It's all fun and games until someone's mother gets involved

You and Larry's mother?Â $:-\$ I thought I saw her in the back window of that shot of your van at Michigan

OK, I give. Uncle. I'm out

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