No LLM at Kawartha next year

[44LLM]

Just recieved rule book for 2009. There will be no LLM next year. Accomodations are being made to allow LLM into Late Model class. Thats too bad. I didn't have the right transmission for kawartha this year. I was hoping to try again next year.

Linkback: https://www.canadianracingonline.com/smf/index.php?topic=9011.msg61620#msg61620

[Thayne]

it's understandable....it is hard to put on a good show with 10 car features on that track....

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[wyatt]

are they replacing it with a new division?

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[rossevans30]

are they replacing it with a new division?

No, but there are rules to try and make it easier for the LLMs to move up to ACT LM.

Linkback: https://www.canadianracingonline.com/smf/index.php?topic=9011.msg61637#msg61637

[midpack]

I personally don't see much in those rules to encourage LLM teams to move up. If your only interest is bring field filler, fine, but if you're hoping to be competetive, I don't see it. Does anyone honestly think the top LLM teams could run with McHattie, Jackson, etc? And if they can't, what chance do the cars they were regularly beating have? I'd be surprised if any of these guys move up; they didn't ask for this change, it was forced on them by Kawartha. There's plenty of other tracks these guys can go to and still run competetively as Limiteds.

Linkback: https://www.canadianracingonline.com/smf/index.php?topic=9011.msg61674#msg61674

[rossevans30]

I personally don't see much in those rules to encourage LLM teams to move up. If your only interest is bring field filler, fine, but if you're hoping to be competetive, I don't see it. Does anyone honestly think the top LLM teams could run with McHattie, Jackson, etc?

No offence to the other LM teams, but with the exception of Watson, none of the LM guys could run with McHattie and Jackson either.

For the LLM guys, it could give them seat time, racing for mid pack, yet still racing.

But yes I would've like LLM to stay at Kawartha. Car counts this year were small, but the year before it was the class to watch. Donldson, Parson, Walters, Desile, Brown, Watson ect, many tracks make their draw off one guy like those....

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[nascar329]

I personally don't see much in those rules to encourage LLM teams to move up. If your only interest is bring field filler, fine, but if you're hoping to be competetive, I don't see it. Does anyone honestly think the top LLM teams could run with McHattie, Jackson, etc? And if they can't, what chance do the cars they were regularly beating have? I'd be surprised if any of these guys move up; they didn't ask for this change, it was forced on them by Kawartha. There's plenty of other tracks these guys can go to and still run competetively as Limiteds.

If I had a LLM I wouldn't turn it into a LM to run at Kawartha and do what Mr. Lynch wants; as you say there are other tracke besides Kawartha to race at.
I wonder if this is the work of the guy that runs ACT, if it is he's ruining racing here "this isn't the USA" !

Linkback: https://www.canadianracingonline.com/smf/index.php?topic=9011.msg61691#msg61691

[midpack]

I personally don't see much in those rules to encourage LLM teams to move up. If your only interest is bring field filler, fine, but if you're hoping to be competetive, I don't see it. Does anyone honestly think the top LLM teams could run with McHattie, Jackson, etc?

For the LLM guys, it could give them seat time, racing for mid pack, yet still racing.quote]

My point, though, is these aren't guys who need to run mid pack just to get seat time. A lot of these guys would be contenders running LLM and need only go ten minutes to half an hour down the road to continue doing so.I don't see why they would want to stay and run mid field (at best) just because that's what Kawartha management decided they should do; believe me the LLM teams weren't clamoring for an opportunity to run with the Late Models.

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[slapdown]

Derek really had little choice and I think the Friday night shows will be much better with the demise of the LLM when this all shakes out. The car counts were small to begin with and with Parsons self-proclaimed retirement were bound to get smaller. Lynch isn't just dropping the class and that's it. By dropping LLM he is gaining purse money and time. He has said he will be padding the lower LM purses to make it more attractive for the guys to move up. The extra time will make it better for the rest of the classes as each car will now be on the track twice before the feature in the form of heat and semi-feature. I'm sure it was a major dissapointment for most competitors to finish out of the semi-feature in years gone by. Now that won't happen. And midpack, thinking some of the LLM won't be competitive after being converted is a myth. I know the 98 of Graham is converting his over and he has the EXACT chassis as McHattie minus the bolt-on parts. McHattie built both cars. If Craig can convert his, I'm sure the 3 or 4 quicker LLM can do the same with some work. I have heard from a few sources that there are 6 cars converting over. I can't see it but who knows. The only one I know for sure is Graham. I would assume Delisle will as well as the rumor last off season was he was moving up. Walters is a definate no from what Slaughter Jr. has told me. The rest of the field I have heard noithing. Finally, everyone, including myself, was skeptical of Lynch when he went to ACT rules only and heaviliy penalized cars that did not conform. We were all wrong. The LM class has continued to grow over the last few years and I'm sure it will again in 2009, depending on the all mighty economy. I do hate to see the LLM go but I truly believe it will make for a better night of racing for the fans and the rest of the other classes at Kawartha.

Linkback: https://www.canadianracingonline.com/smf/index.php?topic=9011.msg61703#msg61703

[midpack]

Hey, you're entitled to your opinion Slapdown, but believe me it's not a myth that a LLM car isn't going to be competetive with the LMs. Yes if you stripped McHattie and Graham's cars down to a bare chassis they'd be essentially the same. But you said it yourself "minus the bolt-on parts"; that's a pretty huge minus. If Graham wants to drop his car to a 4 inch ride height, add all those same bolt on parts and buy the LM crate, then he'll have a LM car, he'll probably be okay. That's going to be a lot of work and a lot of money. If however, he leaves his car as is and moves up taking the few small breaks the rules allow for Limiteds moving up, he'll be uncompetetive. Let's face it he didn't win a feature in LLM last year, with the same car he's not going to win a LM feature. Now what Craig Graham does is Craig Graham's business, but why he would want to spend all that money just to stay at Kawartha is beyond me when he could go to Peterborough, Mosport, Sunset or Barrie and run well as is. But as I said, that's his business, not mine.

  On the topic of Delisle, from what I've heard he is moving up, but had planned on that from the beginning of 2008 and is selling his LLM and buying an ACT LM to make the switch. I doubt anyone would argue his Limited is one of the best in the province and if he won't move up with it that tells you what he thinks the chances of a LLM running well in the LM class are. 

Linkback: https://www.canadianracingonline.com/smf/index.php?topic=9011.msg61710#msg61710

[slapdown]

I will agree that many LLM cars could not be changed to be competitive ACT cars but a handfull could be at least competitive. If you go to some racing classified sites and see what ACT cars are going for in the US right now I would bet it is cheaper than what some of the top LLM guys have into their cars. I think Craig is at least getting the ACT crate but not sure about the rest. He was competitive in his LLM last year, top 5 or 6 car and I think he can be close to that with his converted car. Maybe not 5th but I can see him being a consistent 7th or 8th place car. I'm sure he would be happy with that in his first season. Glad to see Delisle is moving up.

Linkback: https://www.canadianracingonline.com/smf/index.php?topic=9011.msg61849#msg61849

[slowel]

From Jr's mouth with the rules given to LLM to run with LM they have the advantage.And also you want to know how screwed up racing around here is ,you can run thunder at Mosport LLM any where and LM at Kawartha all with the same chassis and motor.

Linkback: https://www.canadianracingonline.com/smf/index.php?topic=9011.msg61920#msg61920

[midpack]

Assuming the Jr you're talking about is Hanley, I would suggest that's a bit of gamesmanship on his part Slowel. If that's really the case, I would guess he'd suggest to Jackson that he should be running a LLM this season; I don't think we're going to see that. I do totally agree with you about how various promoters are screwing things up however; You're totally right that the same car could be Thunder, LLM or ACT LM; it sounds absolutely ridiculous but it's true.

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[kmcleod]

Slowel,

I was thinking the same thing last week when I received the new Kawartha rules.  Now I don't think there are very many existing LLM that would be able to take full advantage of the new LLM rule breaks to run LM but there probably are a few.  If they are newer light weight frame under LLM's like Walters, Baker,Parsons, Morrow that can take advantage of the weight break and get the extra left side advantage they may just surprise some of the LM teams. The 602 with the bigger carb and better headers with the same clutch package may just have a slight advantage over the ZZ4.  I was wondering if there was anybody that might take advantage of the LLM breaks and build a new car to the LLM specs.  Of course if that happens I would bet in 2010 the LLM rules breaks are gone for Kawartha LM.  I hope somebody with a good LLM that can take full advantage of all the rule concessions gives it a try.

Keith

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[bakstreethero]

If memory serves me correct, didn't Walters run very very well in McWerter's LLM at the sizzler in 06 aginst full on late models before the race was an ACT show and the cars where faster.

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