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CanadianRacingOnline.com Section => Race Setups => Engine => Topic started by: Pinecrest on July 24, 2007, 06:58:10 AM

Title: The death of the crate engine
Post by: Pinecrest on July 24, 2007, 06:58:10 AM
 I got an Email this morning from a person I know that they have received a shipment from UPS of a full set of GM crate engine bolts so you can open up and reseal a crate motor . For the poultry sum of  $140 from Dennis Boyd in Orlando you can now open them up and build them the way you want them .  I am told that if you don't want to do it yourself for  $9000 Boyd will ship you a Super Crate that will kill the $3200 crate you buy here locally .

 I had heard this rumor for a while but this is the first person that I know around here that actually got the bolts .

 The crate thing was a good idea but I figured it was just a matter of time until this was going to happen . After I see these bolts tonight for myself I will have more to say on this .
Title: Re: The death of the crate engine
Post by: Thunder6 on July 24, 2007, 07:12:30 AM
Interesting. I have heard rumors (and that is all they are) that some people have been messing with the crate engine anyways. Now they can cover their tracks... And here we are back at step one with everyone having built motors. Personally I think that is what the racers want anyways, not very many guys going with the crate these days. Going to be interesting to see what happens with the rules now. Will they randomly call back crates? I never thought much of the "sealed" idea, for exactly this reason. Too many people have access to the keys and sooner or later (almost two years later) someone gave out a copy of the key. Let us know whether they are the real deal there Pinecrest...
Title: Re: The death of the crate engine
Post by: FromTheStands on July 24, 2007, 07:45:47 AM
Oh well, It figures an engine builder would f*** things up. If it does come to this the price of racing will go up again.
Thunder6, "not very many guys going with the crate these days"
Get you head out of the sand young man, crates are popping up everywhere. Some track have so few builts left you can count them on one hand. Every time one of the last ones blows up, the pit bunnies sing a chorus of "Another One Bites the Dust"

Title: Re: The death of the crate engine
Post by: dodgeguy14 on July 24, 2007, 10:18:39 AM
Its follow the leader racing, cut and dry! went to Cayuga a few weeks ago to watch the crate Asa series and i left 75 laps in. I NEVER LEAVE BEFORE THE RACES ARE OVER. It took one lap to get single file then it was the most painfull race i have watched in a long time. I have heard the sunset llm show is fantastic(probably the only thing positive thing i have heard about sunset in years). And the reason it is good racing is because there is passing. It is not dominated by crate engines, from what i have heard their is a pretty even mix of built and crate engines. Funny that sunsets points leader runs a built motor. Anyways, if tracks would pull their heads out of there asses and even it up so a built can compete you might see some better racing. Sorry from the stands, but a cheap motor doesn't constitute good racing. I look forward to watching the crate fad die a slow painfull death. Real race engines don't come in crates.
Title: Re: The death of the crate engine
Post by: DB71 on July 24, 2007, 10:27:25 AM
I can see the higher classes doing this (eg. Late Model) but for the Stock classes why? Well even the higher classes, the crate is there for a reason to save $$$$.

Now the way I see it, this is just plain CHEATING nothing else, if this cranks your tractor (Cheating) then do it. Your just fooling yourself and you will get caught.  

My crate engine that is 4 years old has new valve springs this year, other than oil changes nothing has been done to it. Four years $3400 is a good deal, I  remember when it was $12 - $13K a year for an engine in the stock classes and the good teams would do a rebuild once a year. All the cars run with in .50 to .70 of one another at our track and the fast guys are the ones that get them to handle.

When we do get teched, our track will pull heads if they think there is an issue with a sealed engine. But, the worst is people hear rumors of people getting the engines resealed. Eventually it gets to Tech and then the engine can be pulled. Do you really want to risk it?

Heck, save time and money and just put in 1.6 rockers on the exhaust only, this will give you more power than the people that don't.

Again if you want to CHEAT go for it, but it just proves you can't make a car handel.



Title: Re: The death of the crate engine
Post by: FromTheStands on July 24, 2007, 11:12:32 AM
Its follow the leader racing, cut and dry! went to Cayuga a few weeks ago to watch the crate Asa series and i left 75 laps in. I NEVER LEAVE BEFORE THE RACES ARE OVER. It took one lap to get single file then it was the most painfull race i have watched in a long time. I have heard the sunset llm show is fantastic(probably the only thing positive thing i have heard about sunset in years). And the reason it is good racing is because there is passing. It is not dominated by crate engines, from what i have heard their is a pretty even mix of built and crate engines. Funny that sunsets points leader runs a built motor. Anyways, if tracks would pull their heads out of there asses and even it up so a built can compete you might see some better racing. Sorry from the stands, but a cheap motor doesn't constitute good racing. I look forward to watching the crate fad die a slow painfull death. Real race engines don't come in crates.

So what's the difference when there's a field of built engines?? Could it be that not everyone is on a level playing field?? Tracks that have gone crate and just now starting to get rid of the single file racing. It took awhile for teams to realize you need to get through the corners when you can't buy straightaway speed.
I beleive the top series of racing have the means to equalize the horsepower available and it's become one of the top sports to watch. Have patience, the growing pains will come and go. It's up to the tracks now to stay the course on crates and give the racers asurface to run on.
Title: Re: The death of the crate engine
Post by: DB71 on July 24, 2007, 11:17:28 AM
How about all the teams that want to run built engines give the difference in the cost between the built and crate to the track they race at so the track can put in variable banking  :)

Title: Re: The death of the crate engine
Post by: SRAMA on July 24, 2007, 12:07:03 PM
I know that the only person I have heard of that has been caught with a cheated crate motor has been banned for at least one season and had his name posted.  I would hope anyone caught in Ontario would receive similar treatment.

SRAMA
Title: Re: The death of the crate engine
Post by: Pinecrest on July 24, 2007, 12:27:56 PM
Its follow the leader racing, cut and dry! went to Cayuga a few weeks ago to watch the crate Asa series and i left 75 laps in. I NEVER LEAVE BEFORE THE RACES ARE OVER. It took one lap to get single file then it was the most painfull race i have watched in a long time. I have heard the sunset llm show is fantastic(probably the only thing positive thing i have heard about sunset in years). And the reason it is good racing is because there is passing. It is not dominated by crate engines, from what i have heard their is a pretty even mix of built and crate engines. Funny that sunsets points leader runs a built motor. Anyways, if tracks would pull their heads out of there asses and even it up so a built can compete you might see some better racing. Sorry from the stands, but a cheap motor doesn't constitute good racing. I look forward to watching the crate fad die a slow painfull death. Real race engines don't come in crates.

So what's the difference when there's a field of built engines?? Could it be that not everyone is on a level playing field?? Tracks that have gone crate and just now starting to get rid of the single file racing. It took awhile for teams to realize you need to get through the corners when you can't buy straightaway speed.
I believe the top series of racing have the means to equalize the horsepower available and it's become one of the top sports to watch. Have patience, the growing pains will come and go. It's up to the tracks now to stay the course on crates and give the racers asurface to run on.

 WHAT?

 Anyone that did not understand that you had to get it through the corner figured that out in 1972 when Billies (Performance Engineering ) built that 331 ci Chevelle and spanked all of us with those big blocks at Cayuga.

  Just about any knuckle dragger can figure out how to get a 300 hp crate in one of todays chassis to hook up and get through the corner Showstopper is proof of that . Now add a bunch of horspower in with different cams etc making power at different parts of the power band and you have a horse of a different colour.

 The top series is NASCAR  Cup and they sure as hell are not going crate anytime soon for many reasons but the main one is because it makes for crappy racing . If you want equal try a spec engine go cart class because short track stock car racing has never been equal and should never be.

 Please don't tell me the sport is growing  just because you see a bunch of people that bought Jeff Gordon hats at Walmart walking around when most places struggle to get 3000 people out when they were drawing 15,000 to 20,000 people  here in southern Ontario in the 60s and 70s

 Maybe you should start a series where everyone gets the identical chassis from the same supplier with the same shocks  and springs and the same set up in it and a crate motor that is the same as everyone else's and you can hold a big race called the Socialist 300 where everyones pit stops have to be the exact same amount of time just so its fair for everyone .

 Geeeez will you guys please stop trying to ruin my sport.
Title: Re: The death of the crate engine
Post by: Buford on July 24, 2007, 12:57:22 PM
That's your best post to date Pinecrest!
Title: Re: The death of the crate engine
Post by: Thayne on July 24, 2007, 01:44:29 PM
VERY interesting Pinecrest.....i wonder how many people know about this b4 you? Could be a lot of crate engines with a lil tinkering done to them here in Ontario.
Title: Re: The death of the crate engine
Post by: Pinecrest on July 24, 2007, 02:08:09 PM
.....i wonder how many people knew about this b4 you?

 Lots Im sure
Title: Re: The death of the crate engine
Post by: Mobil1fan on July 24, 2007, 02:30:27 PM
The top series is NASCAR  Cup and they sure as hell are not going crate anytime soon for many reasons but the main one is because it makes for crappy racing .
I wouldn't be so sure on that one. I know the "Engine of Tomorrow" project got put on the shelf but NASCAR's going full-bore on implementing a Spec engine for the Grand National divisions and tested a spec engine for the Craftsman Trucks a while ago...

Trucks to test spec engine at Martinesville: Bill Davis Racing and Roush Fenway Racing each will test a truck at Martinsville Speedway for NASCAR on Monday. Davis said the teams will use a spec engine as NASCAR explores the possibility of making all the engines the same for the Craftsman Truck series at some point. "On the surface, it really looks good because of the cost reduction," Davis said of a spec engine in the truck series. "The only thing that concerns me, not only my operation but a lot of truck operations are very manufactured-dependent for sponsorship. I'm afraid if the manufacturer doesn't have his engine in there, it's a spec motor, is the attraction still going to be there?" Johnny Benson is scheduled to test for Bill Davis Racing. Travis Kvapil is scheduled to test for Roush Fenway Racing.(Roanoke Times)(6-23-2007)

It doesn't make sense for NASCAR to do it, but then again there's a ton of things NASCAR has done within the past few years that haven't made sense....

As far as crate engines around here, I'm all for allowing them if it gets more people involved. I definitely think the rules for built vs. crate engines could be a lot closer, but both packages can definitely run together...

Title: Re: The death of the crate engine
Post by: hill3 on July 24, 2007, 02:57:32 PM
pinecrest,they did that for years it was called iroc. i seem to remember that it had some of the best racing in the past 20 years. irl has the same idea,poor example,but good door? to door? racing. i feel the best option is a crate/spec rule to work side by side. the slms in this area were spending 20000 to 30000 dollars for a engine,now they can spend 6100 dollars and have half the fuel cost. at the first newalta event,36 cars,crates finished first second third and fifth against big $$$ engines
Title: Re: The death of the crate engine
Post by: Pinecrest on July 24, 2007, 03:58:00 PM
 I figured that someone would bring up IROC .  You may want to consider that IROC has run over 90 % of there races on super speedways over 2 miles long in the last 20 years The only other tracks were Fontana , Darlington and Chicago that are all about 1 1/2 miles . I don't know of any tracks that size in Canada and I don't see how you can compare that to your local 3/8 or 1/2 mile . They did run Richmond twice a 3/4 and both were punt to pass affairs and not exciting races to watch at all unless you like crashes. It is quite a different thing to have the best drivers in the country in an all star format who don't care if they tear up a car they don't own with no points on the line then what you are going to see at your local short track .

  I think the best comparison would be the New Hampshire race back in 2000 where they ran restictor plates on a 1 mile . Do you remember that ? Let me give you the run down of that race ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ .Not a single pass for the lead in the intire race and may have been the worst NASCAR race I have ever seen .

 I am not saying there is no place for crates but in the 300 hp configuration it really causes either gridlock or single file racing and I am not sure I like watching late models that make less HP then my pick up truck.
Title: Re: The death of the crate engine
Post by: Mobil1fan on July 24, 2007, 04:01:23 PM
I think the best comparison would be the New Hampshire race back in 2000 where they ran restictor plates on a 1 mile . Do you remember that ? Let me give you the run down of that race ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ .Not a single pass for the lead in the intire race and may have been the worst NASCAR race I have ever seen .
Short of the Nemechek win in '99, find me ANY race at New Hampshire that wasn't boring...lol
Title: Re: The death of the crate engine
Post by: FromTheStands on July 24, 2007, 04:14:39 PM
I've heard all these arguments for the built engine before. If it's so bad to run one, why does the local Delaware engine builder complain because he would build these engine but it would cost him 15,000 to do it. Okay, so we all spend 15 grand and now the racing will be good? Why???
It's a ludicris amount of money to buy a competative engine. The only way to get ahead for sme people is to have more hp than the next guy. Is that what you advocating Pinecrest, I bet you like to watch the 24 hours of Daytona. It must tickle you think pink to see those Daytona prototypes blow by one of the GT or GT2 cars. I guess that's racing to you, what ever floats you boat.

I did say it was up to the track owners to give the racers a surface to run on. That along with a fair handicapping system and an agressive tech team will be the quickest way to increase car counts.
Having to spend 15,000 to 20,000 (conciderably more for LM)to have some builder hide horsepower in your engine is the reason we're at the state of car count we have now.
Title: Re: The death of the crate engine
Post by: hill3 on July 24, 2007, 04:16:11 PM
the iroc series was stated so that no one would start the ndp 300. the crates that our slms can run have over 400hp,but the important number is torque, you can have a open motor peak at 600 plus hp but big deal,they still have to get it to the ground. the engine is just parts of the equation, these single line races that you are talking about is it possible that it is a single track groove, did they not reconfigure NH after the 300 snoozefest.
Title: Re: The death of the crate engine
Post by: Pinecrest on July 24, 2007, 04:39:47 PM
 The hardest argument I have to counter is Mobil1fans that New Hampshire is boring and since I cant really I will just say its far worst with a restictor plate.

 Fromthestands if you have an engine builder that says he needs $ 15,000 to build a 300 hp small block engine thats reliable you need a new engine builder.

 hill3 the IROC series was started to show case Porsche's in front of an American audience . I have not seen enough of the more powerful crates to judge yet but I dislike its weaker cousin .

 Now I have to go see a man about some bolts ...later
Title: Re: The death of the crate engine
Post by: LMS-QUEBEC on July 24, 2007, 04:40:30 PM
ASA Late-Model and at Delaware used a crate engine that develop 400-425HP with 600cfm 4-barrels and about 375-385HP with Holley 4412 500cfm 2-barrels. This crate engine also allowed with OSS, WEST, some Pro-Stock sanctioning bodies like PASS or MPST.

LMS under ACT-Rules (Kawartha, Ottawa, LMS-ACT, LMS-Québec) used GM Crate Engine develop 350HP with Holley 4412 500cfm 2-barrels.

Since they used this GM Crate Engine, LMS dropped laps-time at pretty all racetracks they are.

An easiest way to control Crate engine, even some raceteams try to cheat the rules with "supposed "Sealed Bolt", just to go on Dyno to check engines... If one of them having different powerplant than all others... maybe to go under technical inspection... This is the ACT used and they never have mistake... All engine offered a different powerplant than all others were "illegal" after some unallowed parts were used into this engine...

Engine aren't the prob with the single file show... It's the drivers attitude...!!!

Title: Re: The death of the crate engine
Post by: Mobil1fan on July 24, 2007, 04:58:31 PM
The hardest argument I have to counter is Mobil1fans that New Hampshire is boring and since I cant really I will just say its far worst with a restictor plate.
It didn't help much that Jeff Burton was hooked up at that place during the late 90s, either....If I recall correctly, he was always in the hunt there for the win from around 97-01, and was one of the few places he could qualify decent at that stage of his career...
Title: Re: The death of the crate engine
Post by: Thunder6 on July 24, 2007, 06:24:05 PM
I have to say that I don't have my head in the sand, as someone suggested. I stay fairly close to what's happening with racing at my track, believe me. Crate motors are a good deal, I will grant you that. If you want an engine for your pickup truck or your street rod. However I can build a built engine for my class that is much better for the same kind of money or a little more and it will not fall flat on it's face in the end of the straight. And the top running guys in my class have built engines. One of them ran crate for awhile, but runs a built engine now. Crate engines are for guys that either don't want to get involved in the parts selection or nitty gritty of engines. Pop it in and go. The track wants to see crates because theoretically then they have no tech issues with engines. I am not scared of selecting parts for what I want the engine to do, nor am I worried about the reliability factor either. Doesn't matter whether it is a crate or built it should be freshened after the season anyways. Bottom line... crates were originally intended for guys restoring cars, street rods and pickup trucks. They are for street operation with a little strip action on the side. If you don't believe me go back to the mid 90's when Mopar Performance (the originators of the crate engine package BTW) was advertising them, they had a 380 hp 360 and a 300 hp 360 (Magnum based not LA). They aimed the market at guys who had musclecars and street rods, not stock car racers. Oval track is just an offshoot of that program.
Title: Re: The death of the crate engine
Post by: Pinecrest on July 24, 2007, 07:38:05 PM
 Well now I have seen seen the crate engine bolts with my own eyes and they are the real deal . The only mistake I made is that they are $140 + shipping. I now find out that these bolts have been available through several sources for over two years . The person that has them pointed out this add on the net that shows just how long you have been able to get them and as you can see the price has come down and the only thing that does that is availability.

http://oval.race-cars.com/partbd/messages/4044.htm

 The argument will be made by the built engine guys and the crate guys forever but now knowing this , how do you just let the crate guys sail past tech ?

 
Title: Re: The death of the crate engine
Post by: hill3 on July 24, 2007, 07:57:07 PM
you don't,if we have a issue wrt to a crate it goes on the dyno,if it is legal then the club pays,if it is not then the protested car will pay and be sent to bed with out supper and loss 15% of their points to date. as for catching them any tech guy with half a brain will be able to till if a crate has been worked by the action on the track. i do not advocate crates in the lower classes by itself,it should go hand in hand with a spec. engine, i have the ability to build a 3500 dollar street stock because of my vocation, that does not mean that all racers have this ability,they have to pay top dollar to a machine shop. they cost sky rockets due to mock up and remock up, not every racer can do this. give them the option to buy a 4200 dollar crate so that they can race. the asa crate package are purpose built for circle track racing not hot rodding and the grocery getter.
Title: Re: The death of the crate engine
Post by: MID on July 24, 2007, 08:16:22 PM
A true Race Crate Motor should not exeed the cost of $8500.00 and there are plenty of them out there at that price... and less. For Example... Jasper is the high end at $8500.00, Blueprint is the low end at around $4500.00 so I cant see why the crate deal wouldnt work in any series.
Engine claim rules are in need to return to every race track, but must be based on a number that is real, and comparitive to the cost of replacement.
In short, if you run a Blueprint Engine and it has a street value of $4500.00 then that should be the claim rule, which allows the guy who lost it, the chance to replace it without spending more then whats in his wallet.
In every series that runs a crate rule or a build rule, teams will spend the extra to have it modified in HP and Torque, which kills the rule to start with. Now put in a Engine Claim Rule and you have a whole new approach to dealing with cheater motors, but still remains real in the cost to replace them.

The only other step to controlling the cost of race motors is allowing the series you run in, to own them, and disburse and rotate them bi-weekly. I know you dont want that to happen.

Last but not least- if you have a couple of guys in your series that win because of illegal motors and you dont have the money to post a engine claim.... just wreck the guy !!.
Motors mean nothing when it's stuffed in the wall. 
Title: Re: The death of the crate engine
Post by: Pinecrest on July 24, 2007, 08:37:27 PM


Last but not least- if you have a couple of guys in your series that win because of illegal motors and you don't have the money to post a engine claim.... just wreck the guy !!.
Motors mean nothing when it's stuffed in the wall. 

 Now thats old school LOL.

 You make all good points but I am dealing in the here and now and I don't think that hill3 is being realistic with the dyno every crate that seems a bit to fast. As far as any tech man with half a brain being able to tell when a crate has been messed with I am not buying it . I have been accused on here of only having half a brain several times and I don't think I could tell a crate that has been apart had a nice valve job maybe massage the head a bit and put back together with replacement crate bolts .

 Now that I have seen what I have and know what I do I think the credibility of running crates because they are going to be all the same very questionable.
Title: Re: The death of the crate engine
Post by: RRRCREW on July 25, 2007, 09:34:04 AM
Thunder6 I believe you are talking about the BSW thunder car crate program which is not very good, everyone else is talking about the LM & LLM crate program. I think the LLM crates at Barrie have been great, it has not been single file racing at Barrie & the biggest reason is the track or progressive banking. The motor is cheap & gives you almost no problems. If it was not for the crates I know we would not be in the LLM class & there are many others at Barrie who would be in the same boat. At Sunset the leader in points runs a built motor, yes, but you could put a thunder motor in Morrow's car & he would win with it. I know many at Sunset are thinking about going to the crate after seeing how well Tommy gets around the track.   
Title: Re: The death of the crate engine
Post by: hill3 on July 25, 2007, 10:27:59 AM
pc. maybe not realistic,but it is a fact. also if your tech person cannot catch this then you have the wrong tech person. we put a stop watch on the crate cars and monitor them, a dyno pull cost is roughly the same as a teardown,less in fact when you include the cost a the tamper proof bolts.aaaaaaaaaaaa why bother you are secure inside you box. the death of short track racing in Canada is not going to come from without, it will come from within because of attitudes that will not change,think outside the box pc. there is a whole world out there that might help save the sport.
Title: Re: The death of the crate engine
Post by: SRAMA on July 25, 2007, 10:43:56 AM
Crate motors are good for racing.  The alternative is spend, spend, spend.  The tracks and racers like and want crate motors.

Pinecrest ........... post on here who has the cheater bolts.

The solution is very simple (in my simple mind) catch one cheated crate motor, ban the racer, post his name, and continue to look for cheating.

Who in Ontario has dyno facilities that could on a Monday and Tuesday check 5 motors and have them ready for return to the racers Wed. morning???  AP in Windsor.

Heres another off the wall idea,  all crate motors are equal right, next race night after the feature the first 5 cars pull their motors and car 1's motor goes home with car 2, car 2's motor goes home with car 3, etc until car 5's motor goes home with car 1.

SRAMA
Title: Re: The death of the crate engine
Post by: mike32 on July 25, 2007, 11:55:28 AM
someone in Niagara has the dyno too as Merrittville staff pulled the 3 crates of the top finishing sportmen class after one weekly June race and returned them within 24 hrs. The crate has been the saviour of the DIRT sportsman division. Dirt had some big suspensions this year for tampering also. Nice to know that you can run weekly on $25.00 worth of pump gas and with DIRT's rules, a car that is legal at Oshweken is legal at Orange County, NY 500 miles away. We can't get late model tracks 80 miles apart to agree on a set of rules!
Title: Re: The death of the crate engine
Post by: TheVoice on July 25, 2007, 01:04:58 PM
Crate engines are for guys that either don't want to get involved in the parts selection or nitty gritty of engines.

That's just an ignorant comment.  The vast, vast majority of crate engines are for guys with a lower budget that want to race and be competitive.  Plain and simple.

Before I go further, I will say now that I support the crate engine program 100%.  As I mentioned previously, for low budget teams, the crate motor is an absolute god-send.  Low budget DOES NOT mean low talent, and this program has shown that.

Having said that, any thought of "the death of the crate engine" doesn't excite me.  However, lets say these bolts do exist and are widespread.  OK, fine.  That doesn't spell the end by any means.  Since the beginning of time, cheating has existed.  Of course new ways to cheat will always pop up.  It's up to the tracks and tech officials to adapt.  Think steroids in sports.  They are always coming up with new drugs, and conversely, searching for new ways to test.  It's an endless battle so getting stressed about this recent "discovery" is a waste of energy.

Now, on to my real reason for posting...

I understand that some out there despise the crate motor.  To each his own.  But, to say that the crate engine is ruining the sport is just plain rediculous.  Anyone that says that, to me, comes across as bitter.  Bitter, that they can't win races by putting their foot to the floor and letting the horses do the work.  That's not talent.  In short track racing, the talented drivers are the ones who can get through the corner best, high and low.  The crate motor has shed light on that and for some, the light is unwelcome.

Blaming the crate motor for single file racing.  Not really fair.  Closer racing?  Yes.  Single file?  No.  Go back to pre-crate days.  Car 1 has a small fortune under the hood and 540hp.  Car 2 has $2,000 and creaks out 250hp under his.  Etc, etc, through the field.  Will there be passing? You're damn right there will.  Car 1 is going to fly by Car 2, even though the talent might be totally equal.  Once again, low budget DOES NOT mean low talent.

Introduce the crate motor.  Car 1 and Car 2 both have 300hp now.  Obviously the field is going to be much tighter together.  Will there be passing?  Once of of the guys figures out how to get through the corner better than the other, you're damn right there will be.  But no, there won't be any rocketing past the guy mid-straight.  SORRY.  It's going to happen in the corner.  Now, this argument assumes there are two grooves on the racetrack to do said passing.  We all know that isn't the case at many tracks but that is a whole different story and a completely separate issue.

Has the crate motor ruined short track racing?  No, quite the opposite in my opinion.  It's brought the field closer together, and allowed talent to win races rather than money invested in ponies.  More importantly, it's allowed drivers that have a bottom to their bank accounts the chance to enjoy racing and showcase their talents out on the track.

For the "tinkerers" out there who argue that half the fun is in getting into the "nitty-gritty" of the motor, looking for the extra power.  Well, you can dive just as deep into the "nitty-gritty" of handling.  Think of it as a new challenge.
Title: Re: The death of the crate engine
Post by: silverfox0005 on July 25, 2007, 01:41:26 PM
i know a lot of people have been complaining about the single file racing & i personally think that the crate engines are not the cause. in other divisions such as street stock & open wheel some of the guys have learned how to make there cars work on the outside. at deleware for example the other three divisions have gotten a handle on it. we just need somebody in late model who wants to take a stab at trying to make the outside work. i find the problem in late model is the drivers just prefer the inside & its hard to teach an old dog a new trick. as far as cheating the engine up its not really worth it because what generally happens is get so excited you get the lead & you forget about that half straight away lead you got by the end of the race & you know what tech is going to do ha! so if you cheat don't always win you might not get caught.
Title: Re: The death of the crate engine
Post by: Pinecrest on July 25, 2007, 07:52:32 PM
 I see allot of good points here by silverfox , Thunder6  ,SRAMA  ,Mike32 , hill3  ,TheVoice but heres the bottom line the bolts are out there I have seen them with my own eyes so besides what hill3 says where they stop watch everyone and  I guess dyno anyone that is 2 or 3 tenths too quick ? What do you do with them then ? are they just out for the night and that nights points ?

 I think the penalty for tampering with a crate has to be a whole bunch more then running a set of hot heads with a built engine . If not I see a cottage industry of building Hot Crate engines for myself and others.

 I am not so egocentric as to think I am the first person in Ontario that has come across these bolts and I have now been told about 3 places you can get them so I am sure they are at a race track near you .

 
Title: Re: The death of the crate engine
Post by: hill3 on July 25, 2007, 08:11:48 PM
they are here also,out of mopac in alta. you are right, anyone caught tampering with a crate should have the wrath of god come down on them. i could be wrong but i remember when the old asa went to crates they caught one person,50000 dollar fine or year suspension,also they lost the illegal crate. and yes if the car is a couple of tenths faster then tech it, if it passes the dyno and found legal the club pays for the dyno and hands the driver $200, not only do you catch a possible cheater,you have also served notice that this will not be tolerated,it comes back to the sanctioning bodies,tracks and clubs to be consistent and above board with the whole process.
Title: Re: The death of the crate engine
Post by: Thunder6 on July 25, 2007, 11:28:14 PM
I would like to respond to some comment made to my earlier post. RRR this is true, I am referring to the Thunder Car crate engine program at BSW. I did understand that most people were talking about crates in LLM/LM but I posted what I think anyways. And I know that the crate program available to our class at our track is kind of weak. If I had the option of buying a crate that would do what I wanted it to do for the price that it is I might think about it, but it doesn't so it is not an option for me. In reality I can have the engine I want for roughly the same price or a little more. If everyone had to use the same engine then I would use it of course. But until that is mandated and we have the current crate option I will keep my built engine. I don't think my comment about people using the crate who don't want to get involved with engine building was ignorant at all. It is partly true. However I will grant that perhaps I did miss the racer who uses the crate as a means of keeping engine budgets down. The reality being in the class that I race if you have certain resources available to you, (not talking cash either) you can build a better engine than the crate for about the same price. If the LLM/LM guys are getting crate engines with 400hp for $3500-4000 that is a great deal and if I raced LM that is absolutely the way I would go. And thank you for your recommendations on getting my car to handle, I am aware of the fact that a good handling car will beat a HP monster any day of the week. You will always have to turn left sometime. I look for advantages throughout my program, and try to cover all of the angles.
Title: Re: The death of the crate engine
Post by: JMB on July 26, 2007, 12:38:40 AM
I get it. If we all run crates in our late models & one car is 2 to 3 tenths faster it must be his motor!!! That thinking is so "Inside the box". Wasn't someone talking about outside the box thinking?? Maybe that team does their homework on their chassis & has done everything to maximize their on track effort. Lets not give them credit for that, lets pull the motor!!! Crate motors are not the only component needed to equalize competition if that is what is desired by the race track or promoter. Tech the whole race car, make sure the whole series or class is playing by the same rules. Take a 15 car class that exists today the cream will still rise to the top with crate engines under the hood. I am glad to see that the crate engine has saved short track racing!!!
Title: Re: The death of the crate engine
Post by: Racer43 on July 26, 2007, 01:22:43 AM
The bolts have been around as long as the crates. Keep it simple, caught screwing with a crate, see you in a calender year and we'll take your engine ty.
Title: Re: The death of the crate engine
Post by: Pinecrest on July 26, 2007, 04:13:45 AM
The bolts have been around as long as the crates. Keep it simple, caught screwing with a crate, see you in a calender year and we'll take your engine ty.

 People keep saying they have been around for a long time and the link I posted would seem to bear that out but when did you actually see them yourself ? I have been told that there is at lest one car at Barrie and one at Sunset that has obtained these bolts and I cant think of any reason you would acquire the bolts unless you are up to something .
Title: Re: The death of the crate engine
Post by: RRRCREW on July 26, 2007, 09:24:56 AM
When Stefko rebuilds the crate at Barrie they change the GM snap bolts to bolts with a wire seal through them. If they changed the crates to have this seal from new would it stop the tampering? Or is it just as easy to get those bolts as well?
Title: Re: The death of the crate engine
Post by: hill3 on July 26, 2007, 09:32:07 AM
jmb, the couple of tenths thing is for a car that already has been part of the crate program,if i all of sudden show up and i am that much faster than the field and have cheated i would welcome the tech so that everyone would know the truth. sometimes when you think your are out of the box it is just a bigger box,think past your nose and have some faith in your tech officials we are not idiots.
Title: Re: The death of the crate engine
Post by: FromTheStands on July 26, 2007, 09:51:57 AM
When Stefko rebuilds the crate at Barrie they change the GM snap bolts to bolts with a wire seal through them. If they changed the crates to have this seal from new would it stop the tampering? Or is it just as easy to get those bolts as well?

Delaware has been doing that (seals) at the dealership before you even pickup the engine. Of course I'm sure Pinecrest knows people who can get around that. But why?
There's all kind of ways to check a crate engine, because, when they're all the same it's easier to check for a particular reading or value in ,on or around the engine right at the track. It all comes back to the tech garage and the skill and equipment available to them. Delaware hasn't been afraid to pull apart a crate if they find an anomaly.


I'm not quite sure I understand Thunder6 's post. The speedshop price for the parts in a GM 602 crate engine are about $12,000. You can buy it mass produced, assembled for $3200. Why would you build one?

Again, If you are going with a built engine or a spec engine ,(and you follow the rules), wouldn't all the engines work out to pretty near the same values for hp and torque. Maybe you would want different engines for different tracks but if you all running the same track???? At least that's what I hear from the engine builders in their pitch to sell product. "Your paying us for the research and development it take to give you the best engine for your track. We've spent a lot of time and effort experimenting and that cost money."
I think it's just BS. Save it for the guys that burp it down the straight track.


And a big shout out to all you tech official and track owners, remember those long, long, long nights at the track watch a bunch of crews tearing down those built motors, listening to the whining and complaining, getting attitude when you hand them a $50 gasket set. Oh, those were the days.

Title: Re: The death of the crate engine
Post by: RANDY on July 26, 2007, 11:58:58 AM
Okay, I have kept looking at the posts on this subject and i have finally decided to add my 2 cents worth.
We build our own late model engines with help from a reputable engine builder and I will continue to do so until I see that the crate program completely under control - which it is not, by any stretch of the imagination.
Pinecrest is saying the bolts are readily available - this is the original post.
I think his point is: How are the tracks keeping an eye on this and what are they doing to keep it under control? answer.......a little bit - but not nearly enough and they had better get off their keyster's before it gets out of control.
If you think you can get away with changing rocker arm ratio's, pushrod lengths, compression ratio or anything else that is very simple to check - you had better check the "best before date" on your prescription because you will not get away with it for long.
Let me say that the crate program has saved several late model classes across north america and anyone that thinks differently had better up their dosage of whatever it is they are ingesting - fact is, the program has accomplished the goal of increasing car counts and for that, I applaud the tracks, sanctioning bodies and racers for going with it.
There have been several suggestions tracks could implement to help keep things in check - the problem is, not 1 track is doing any of these things.
There's pro's and con's to all suggestions and I'm sure that some crate owners will think some of them are completely nuts - well, what do they suggest?
Hey Jay - wouldn't you like to swap your engine with somebody else - even if it's just to see if there is any difference?
We built engine guys are still at the mercy of the technical inspection people and if they tell me to pull the thing apart - I have to do this and put it back together on my dime - what's wrong with this picture when the crate guys may have to replace a set of rocker cover gaskets at the very most.
The problem is exactly what From the Stands sarcastically referred to:   
  And a big shout out to all you tech official and track owners, remember those long, long, long nights at the track watch a bunch of crews tearing down those built motors, listening to the whining and complaining, getting attitude when you hand them a $50 gasket set. Oh, those were the days.
This my friend is the kind if narrow minded thinking that has put this program in jeopardy. The technical people have to start looking closer and if it takes half the night and part of the morning - or even a week to do so - the integrity of the program will stay in tact, otherwise it will only take a couple of years until you will be forced to go back to an engine builder with your crate to have it ............tuned up - just so you can keep up.
I think the crates are the best thing that has happened for a very long time to racing in general and if someone is a couple of tenths quicker that the rest, chances are he will win sooner or later and if that happens to be the night he swaps engines with someone else in the top 5, well that should answer the question right there and then.
I'm almost done - bear with me.
As far as the follow the leader problem that exists at pretty much all tracks lately - there's a couple of reason's for this:
(1) the tracks do need to work on their surfaces to promote passing.
(2) the fields are getting very competitive and everyone is running very close to the same speed - you can be a couple of tenths quicker, but if you lose 4 tenths going to the outside lane................c-ya.

Sorry to take so much space.

Randy Shaw
#82 Late Model
 
Title: Re: The death of the crate engine
Post by: Race8Fan on July 26, 2007, 01:27:40 PM
Randy I was glad to see your post here on crate engines and the possibilities of some teams tampering with the sealed crate engine.  From your post it seems you do believe the bolts are out there to be had and some teams may be using them to make some illegal changes.  I noticed in the Shaw Motorsports monthly update for April 2007 that you found time to help out a fellow racer with his motor.  Here is the sentence that peaked my interest "Randy offered his services to change the cam shaft and do a general overview for the #31 McWirter racing team.".  Now I would hope that it wasn't the 602 crate engine that has been in the 31 car running at Barrie Speedway in the LLM class this season.  When I first read this back in May I didn't really give it a second thought, but in the last month I have had two people (neither have direct ties to any car at Barrie Speedway) tell me how much faster and more powerful the 31 car looks to be compared to the rest of the cars.  Both observations were made on two different nights by very seasoned race people that only attend the races at Barrie a couple of times a year.  Now let me say this I don't believe you would tamper with a sealed crate engine, but when you start adding things together it sure doesn't look good.
Title: Re: The death of the crate engine
Post by: Racer43 on July 26, 2007, 01:43:10 PM
Good to see your joining the party Randy. I totally agree. Swapping engines is an interesting idea, I'm willing. Can I pick the one. I've heard of some crates visiting builders dyno's. I dont know first hand what the outcome was I can only assume they come out stronger or the guys wouldn't be doing it. As far as mine goes it was to a dyno right after we took delivery ( 3 years ago ) just to know were we stood. Valve springs over the last off season has been our freshening expense. So far we're happy with the way things are going with respect to performance. However in hind sight LM's probably should have had the smaller 350 HP crate, this would have created more unity accross Ontario with the LLM's. Cya Friday
Title: Re: The death of the crate engine
Post by: RANDY on July 26, 2007, 01:53:50 PM
Wow,
First of all - I (we) would never intentionally break a rule that was black & white and to consider tampering with a sealed crate would be exactly that.
The engine that I changed the camshaft in was one of their old late model engines that is being used in a modified.
Shawn has helped us out with some deals for the ARP body parts and I simply offered to return the favour.
I have not had a close up look at one of the #602's and being a Chevrolet - I'm not sure where to start because the distributor is at the wrong end to begin with........
This is a prime example of what I was referring to in my post.
I have never seen a set of the bolts and hopefully never will, but then again, I have never wrestled an alligator - hopefully never will, but there's some people out there that get a kick out of things like this........

Cheers,
Randy
Title: Re: The death of the crate engine
Post by: RANDY on July 26, 2007, 02:20:55 PM
Good to see your joining the party Randy. I totally agree. Swapping engines is an interesting idea, I'm willing. Can I pick the one. I've heard of some crates visiting builders dyno's. I dont know first hand what the outcome was I can only assume they come out stronger or the guys wouldn't be doing it. As far as mine goes it was to a dyno right after we took delivery ( 3 years ago ) just to know were we stood. Valve springs over the last off season has been our freshening expense. So far we're happy with the way things are going with respect to performance. However in hind sight LM's probably should have had the smaller 350 HP crate, this would have created more unity accross Ontario with the LLM's. Cya Friday
I guess that would be the only part that wouldn't be exactly fair in swapping engines - some poor bugger has a 6 race old engine and gets your 3 year old "beater" in exchange - but I'm sure there would be a way to pro-rate the cost somehow.
I don't necessarily agree with having the same engine as the LLM - I think the #604 is much better suited for a LM and it is much more popular in this class throughout north america.
That's pretty cool that you can get three years out of it and only change springs - however - I have seen some guys that have had to buy a replacement because something failed internally and they were told that the dealership would not be able to have it repaired in time for the following week.
I would expect most teams to take their engine to a dyno and optimize the carb and timing and possibly try a few things to gain everything they can - legally.
No - you are not allowed to choose which one you get - unless I can interest you in a Ford built motor .................. forget it, it wouldn't fit anyways and that damn distributor is still at the wrong end.........
Save us a spot beside you friday.
We can have beers and sort this whole mess out in 1 night.
See you then.

Randy
Title: Re: The death of the crate engine
Post by: Pinecrest on July 26, 2007, 06:46:33 PM

Pinecrest is saying the bolts are readily available - this is the original post.
I think his point is: How are the tracks keeping an eye on this and what are they doing to keep it under control? answer.......a little bit - but not nearly enough and they had better get off their keyster's before it gets out of control.
If you think you can get away with changing rocker arm ratio's, pushrod lengths, compression ratio or anything else that is very simple to check - you had better check the "best before date" on your prescription because you will not get away with it for long.Randy Shaw
#82 Late Model
 

 RANDY its not just me saying the bolts are readily available  ,its a fact . I gave the source  where the the ones I saw came from and a link to some chic that was selling them in Michigan and hill3 says he knows where you can buy them out west. I have not confirmed the other two places that I was told you can get them but if you want I will .
 The people I know that have them are not rocket scientists but they know what they can get away with . All they want to do is put a multi angle valve job on the head and maybe work the spring pockets . They would like to replace the cam  or regrind it with less overlap so the engine dose not fall on it face at rpm but they know they have to keep the same lift and about the same duration , just change the base circle .

 Your a smart guy so forget about improving the cam just the valve job ,thats maybe 15 to 25 hp wouldn't you think ?

 Maybe I am just skeptical but now when I see a crate I wonder if its been massaged.


Title: Re: The death of the crate engine
Post by: RANDY on July 27, 2007, 10:41:41 AM

 RANDY its not just me saying the bolts are readily available  ,its a fact . I gave the source  where the the ones I saw came from and a link to some chic that was selling them in Michigan and hill3 says he knows where you can buy them out west. I have not confirmed the other two places that I was told you can get them but if you want I will .
 The people I know that have them are not rocket scientists but they know what they can get away with . All they want to do is put a multi angle valve job on the head and maybe work the spring pockets . They would like to replace the cam  or regrind it with less overlap so the engine dose not fall on it face at rpm but they know they have to keep the same lift and about the same duration , just change the base circle .

 Your a smart guy so forget about improving the cam just the valve job ,thats maybe 15 to 25 hp wouldn't you think ?

 Maybe I am just skeptical but now when I see a crate I wonder if its been massaged.

I was simply pointing out the original question that you asked.
It doesn't matter from where they are available - just pointing out that you indicated that you physically held them in your hand and that it is not just speculation that they are available.
Changing the base circle of the lobe will make the pushrod length/rocker arm geometry even worse - you would be better to grind a new shaft and keep the base circle as large as possible - tell me how a tech guy is going to be able to degree a camshaft at the track? How can they possibly find true TDC without pulling the head?
Sorry, but I think the valve job on those heads from the factory are not that bad and I would expect maybe a 10hp increase at the very most.
Working the spring pockets is another no-no because they are checking seat pressure also.
Again, you never know if it's as produced or not and until somebody puts a program in place to deter anybody from playing around, you and everybody else can speculate all you want.
Title: Re: The death of the crate engine
Post by: Greasemonkey on July 27, 2007, 12:25:58 PM
I was simply pointing out the original question that you asked.
It doesn't matter from where they are available - just pointing out that you indicated that you physically held them in your hand and that it is not just speculation that they are available.
Changing the base circle of the lobe will make the pushrod length/rocker arm geometry even worse - you would be better to grind a new shaft and keep the base circle as large as possible - tell me how a tech guy is going to be able to degree a camshaft at the track? How can they possibly find true TDC without pulling the head?
Sorry, but I think the valve job on those heads from the factory are not that bad and I would expect maybe a 10hp increase at the very most.
Working the spring pockets is another no-no because they are checking seat pressure also.
Again, you never know if it's as produced or not and until somebody puts a program in place to deter anybody from playing around, you and everybody else can speculate all you want.


Randy on a couple of points you are correct.

1 - Changing the base circle of the lobe will make the pushrod length/rocker arm geometry even worse - you would be better to grind a new shaft and keep the base circle as large as possible. Very true, Changing the lobe centerlines (108/110 Lobe separation) would help the top end but would be cheating which I don't condone.
2 - How can they possibly find true TDC without pulling the head? Easy, you put the degree wheel and pointer on the crank, you use a dummy spark plug that hits the piston, rotate the engine until it contacts the piston, measure that angle on the wheel, rotate the engine (carefully) in the opposite direction until the dummy plug hits the piston, take the total number of degrees and find the middle, thats TDC.

3 - Sorry, but I think the valve job on those heads from the factory are not that bad and I would expect maybe a 10hp increase at the very most.
Working the spring pockets is another no-no because they are checking seat pressure also. We’ve noted on the dyno that doing the valve job properly gives you between 5 and 10 hp gain.

 Greasemonkey.

Title: Re: The death of the crate engine
Post by: hill3 on July 27, 2007, 12:30:13 PM
bolts or not lets be honest here all the crate does(tech wise) is make it harder to cheat and i feel easier to catch with a tech crew that has some mechanical talent,but the tracks and clubs must have the gonads to let the tech people do the job not come back with the line if we tech to hard the cars will not come,never releasing if you tech hard the clean racer will stay or come back. it has been my experience that those who bi*** the most about tech are those who are cheating the most.
Title: Re: The death of the crate engine
Post by: RANDY on July 27, 2007, 12:44:13 PM
Hey Grease,
I really doubt a piston stop would work through the spark plug hole due to the angle of the hole in the heads.
Now I could be wrong on this, but I don't think it would work.
Also, with the c/r of the limited engine - I doubt they are running the deck clearance that tight (I expect the piston to be down the bore about .020) which will make it even worse.
Again, I may be wrong on this - it would have to be tried.
As for the camshaft specs - I think that would soften it too much on the bottom end and you wouldn't be able gain it back quick enough.
I would suggest a different profile - but I would have to do some more math to confirm it.

RS

P.S. Hill3 - That's my point - thay have to start doing more than they are currently or it's going to get way out of hand. The guys complaining are also the same guys that are absolutely convinced that the fast cars are cheating and think that they are also going to have to do it to keep up. Fact is, nobody can tell these guys without a doubt that they are wrong and show them the proof to back it up.
Title: Re: The death of the crate engine
Post by: hill3 on July 27, 2007, 12:54:41 PM
then randy the teams need to start putting pressure on the tracks or sanctioning bodies to get tough on teching. hit them where it hurts, the teams control car count use that no cars no show no fans no money they should see the light or go extinct
Title: Re: The death of the crate engine
Post by: FromTheStands on July 27, 2007, 02:39:15 PM
I can't even begin to get into the technical side of things that you guys are but it's obvious that there are as many ways to check an engine as there are ways to be creative.

The only thing I see is what happens on the track.

The Delaware Super Stocks that run the 602 engine recently ran qualifying for their special show format.
The top 5 were 2/10ths apart, the top 10 cars were less than 5/10ths apart and the top 20 were under 1 sec. apart. On a 1/2 mile that's some pretty close qualifying.
Of course, sand bagging could have been going on but I find it unlikely.

There was a time when one or two cars would easily have over 1 sec.on the entire field. Not any more.

Now we just need 2 grooves.

I hope your call to step up tech inspections doesn't go unheeded. Crate motors are saving racetracks all over. I'm sure there will be a trickle down effect from just this posting started by Pincrest. Maybe that was his intent all along. So maybe he isn't John Saunders after all.
Title: Re: The death of the crate engine
Post by: Pinecrest on July 27, 2007, 07:47:16 PM
 No I am not John Saunders .

 I do hope that threads like this wake up some of the techs that don't even bother to look at the crates . I think there are a few cheater crates out there probally not many but there are a few and they have to weed them out and come down like a ton of bricks on the guys that get caught .

 I am a built engine guy but I do realize that crates are the future but that doesn't mean I have to like it . Hey I was against putting the engines in the back of Indy cars and obsoleting those beautiful roadsters and I still think midgets should be running Offys they sounded soooo good . I know I am a dinosaur but its just how it is.

 I also realize there is a bunch of kids with their baseball caps on backwards reading this going "what the hell is an Offy"  go ask your grandfather.
Title: Re: The death of the crate engine
Post by: Thunder6 on July 27, 2007, 11:14:43 PM
I know what an Offy is Pinecrest. Aren't they all museum pieces now? They came shortly after the wheel. I'm just kidding, personally I wish I could have been around in the heyday of Can-Am, to see the Turbopanzer, Chapparals and McLarens in that virtually unlimited racing series. In some ways I think the old days were better, maybe not as safe, but those guys were gladiators.
Title: Re: The death of the crate engine
Post by: hill3 on July 28, 2007, 01:07:32 AM
hey pinecrest do any of the tracks in Ont race a Bennett baggy. stand alone crates i believe are not the future, crates with a  spec engine i feel is the best of both worlds for slm and former cascars,maybe with a 6500 dollar crate rule and proper teching for sure
Title: Re: The death of the crate engine
Post by: 4bbl on July 29, 2007, 11:47:47 AM
ok guys, save me some time & effort.  What are the phone numbers, names, places, web sites, etc where I can get some crate engine bolts?
Title: Re: The death of the crate engine
Post by: hill3 on July 29, 2007, 12:32:23 PM
hey 4bbl,i can sell you a set for $6100,i will even give you the rest of the engine for free,u pay shipping
Title: Re: The death of the crate engine
Post by: caa on July 29, 2007, 09:27:31 PM
hey guys since we are on the topic of crate motors does anyone know where i could find a good used crate(A.C.T.)??? if so e-mail me @matthew.moffitt@sympatico.ca
Title: Re: The death of the crate engine
Post by: 4bbl on July 30, 2007, 09:13:09 AM
Hill3, I don't need another crate engine, I just need a better crate engine.
Title: Re: The death of the crate engine
Post by: hill3 on July 30, 2007, 09:20:08 AM
you do not need a better crate, most speed is lost or found in the corners on short tracks,maybe creative suspension parts would give you a better bang for your buck. also how old are your valve springs,replacing them,which is allowed, on a older engine will net you 8 to 12 hp.
Title: Re: The death of the crate engine
Post by: TheVoice on July 30, 2007, 10:08:51 AM
ok guys, save me some time & effort.  What are the phone numbers, names, places, web sites, etc where I can get some crate engine bolts?

I hope you have a fishing license.
Title: Re: The death of the crate engine
Post by: Taz on September 26, 2011, 09:56:23 PM
In the SS/Thunder class you can make the car faster by cheating or true tuning with the chassis, almost as easy as cheating with the engine. I found 2 tenths with a simple adjustment in my SS.

Another addition to penalizing the driver/owner, would be to go after the builders. In other words, if you rebuild or freshen crates, you are also liable for them to be legit. ei. If Joe's performance gets caught cheating with crates, his services can be banned. If the track sealed the engine after the race with a home track type seal, it would help stop engines being touched between races, too.

Sealed engine tampering needs to be recognized as a major NO,NO and dealt with sternly IMO.
Title: Re: The death of the crate engine
Post by: 240racer on September 27, 2011, 01:21:04 AM
  ^ The last post in this thread was over 4 years ago.........
Title: Re: The death of the crate engine
Post by: ayjay on September 27, 2011, 09:17:25 AM
  ^ The last post in this thread was over 4 years ago.........
The problem still exists, who cares how old the topic or thread is?
Title: Re: The death of the crate engine
Post by: thecrowdpleaser on September 27, 2011, 09:24:23 AM
  ^ The last post in this thread was over 4 years ago.........
The problem still exists, who cares how old the topic or thread is?

i think that may have been his point.......the fact that not much has changed
Title: Re: The death of the crate engine
Post by: 240racer on September 27, 2011, 09:44:14 AM
The fact that a lot of the original posters may not be around anymore
The fact that no one is going to read back 4 pages of stuff that is 4 years old
The fact that a new thread about this has recently been started
We don't need 3 threads going about the same thing like usually happens on here (ex, Racing from Sunset Sept xx, 2011)
Title: Re: The death of the crate engine
Post by: Taz on September 27, 2011, 10:27:52 AM
  ^ The last post in this thread was over 4 years ago.........

My suggestions aren't....... ;D
Title: Re: The death of the crate engine
Post by: ayjay on September 27, 2011, 03:51:16 PM
Another addition to penalizing the driver/owner, would be to go after the builders.

Bit hard to do when that builder is an approved engine source in the rule book, and also is (was) a sponsor of a series you run.

OUCH!!!!
Title: Re: The death of the crate engine
Post by: superstockcarguy on February 07, 2013, 07:45:48 PM
At our track a lot of people use crates actually I think most people use crates.