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Author Topic: Another year year of history on the crate vs built issue  (Read 3304 times)

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Offline ayjay

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Another year year of history on the crate vs built issue
« on: September 25, 2011, 04:46:10 PM »
There may never be a real answer to this debate but there is another question now.
Why are some "crates" so much faster than other crates? Has it got anything to do with these?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/GM-602-603-604-Crate-Engine-Break-Away-Seal-Bolts-/170699234507?pt=Race_Car_Parts&hash=item27be779ccb

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Another year year of history on the crate vs built issue
« on: September 25, 2011, 04:46:10 PM »

Offline don91

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Re: Another year year of history on the crate vs built issue
« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2011, 05:43:40 PM »
what are you trying to say! any promoter or tech guy at any paved track here in ontario will tell you, we do not allow cheated up crate engines. don`t you know?, that only happens south of the border,lol

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Offline K-man

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Re: Another year year of history on the crate vs built issue
« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2011, 05:46:53 PM »
There may never be a real answer to this debate but there is another question now.
Why are some "crates" so much faster than other crates? Has it got anything to do with these?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/GM-602-603-604-Crate-Engine-Break-Away-Seal-Bolts-/170699234507?pt=Race_Car_Parts&hash=item27be779ccb

I don't think anyone needs to buy new break away bolts. All you have to do is take it to your track supported engine builder, pay him, and have new seals put on it. Fewer and fewer tracks really don't care what you have for an engine or what has been done to it as long as its another car on the track. If this all sounds negative, its supposed to sound that way because most of the tracks have destroyed an economical way for some racers to race so now it is cheaper for some guys to simply park their cars.

Now I guess its time for the resident expert to chime in with his 2 cents or is that nonsense. I'm not too sure.

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« Last Edit: September 25, 2011, 05:51:12 PM by K-man »

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Re: Another year year of history on the crate vs built issue
« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2011, 05:46:53 PM »

Offline ayjay

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Re: Another year year of history on the crate vs built issue
« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2011, 05:51:57 PM »
what are you trying to say! any promoter or tech guy at any paved track here in ontario will tell you, we do not allow cheated up crate engines. don`t you know?, that only happens south of the border,lol
Or maybe it's just cause some of them come from GM with acid ported heads, 1.6 rockers, 0 decked blocks etc. You just got to get lucky when you buy one I guess hahaha.

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Offline don91

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Re: Another year year of history on the crate vs built issue
« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2011, 06:01:47 PM »
k-man i totally agree with your crate comment!

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Offline K-man

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Re: Another year year of history on the crate vs built issue
« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2011, 06:09:22 PM »
k-man i totally agree with your crate comment!

Thanks, now all we have to do is wait for the tracks to realize what's going on and the effect it is having. I know they are aware of the problem but they choose to do nothing about it.

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Offline ayjay

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Re: Another year year of history on the crate vs built issue
« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2011, 09:57:42 PM »
k-man i totally agree with your crate comment!

Thanks, now all we have to do is wait for the tracks to realize what's going on and the effect it is having. I know they are aware of the problem but they choose to do nothing about it.

This is the point of this thread. The whole idea of running a crate is to keep costs down it should not give immunity to people that choose to cheat like it is doing right now. The tech guys are looking the other way unless it is a built engine, that should not be happening.

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Offline K-man

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Re: Another year year of history on the crate vs built issue
« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2011, 10:33:26 PM »
k-man i totally agree with your crate comment!

Thanks, now all we have to do is wait for the tracks to realize what's going on and the effect it is having. I know they are aware of the problem but they choose to do nothing about it.

This is the point of this thread. The whole idea of running a crate is to keep costs down it should not give immunity to people that choose to cheat like it is doing right now. The tech guys are looking the other way unless it is a built engine, that should not be happening.

I'm sure we all know what the point of this thread is and I commend you for having the guts to post it but until the tracks decide to get serious about the tampering problems, our only options are either; learn to live with it, join in with the few guys that are tampering with crates, or park the car. As far as I'm concerned, the options available are pretty pathetic.

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Offline polishprince12

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Re: Another year year of history on the crate vs built issue
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2011, 08:29:57 AM »
k-man i totally agree with your crate comment!

Thanks, now all we have to do is wait for the tracks to realize what's going on and the effect it is having. I know they are aware of the problem but they choose to do nothing about it.

This is the point of this thread. The whole idea of running a crate is to keep costs down it should not give immunity to people that choose to cheat like it is doing right now. The tech guys are looking the other way unless it is a built engine, that should not be happening.

I'm sure we all know what the point of this thread is and I commend you for having the guts to post it but until the tracks decide to get serious about the tampering problems, our only options are either; learn to live with it, join in with the few guys that are tampering with crates, or park the car. As far as I'm concerned, the options available are pretty pathetic.
how true that is! :(

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Offline Rob Hosking

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Re: Another year year of history on the crate vs built issue
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2011, 12:37:06 PM »
Every year at some point this post reappears in some form...
There is no answer to the debate. Crates are here to stay, and they will be tampered with whether the racer or an engine builder does it.
Crates are good for two things, traction and budget. Some racers use the crate to get through tech, as it is a "free pass". Those are the guys you have to go after.
Through pulling the rocker cover and checking the OPEN pressure on the springs, not the seat pressure you could eliminate the easist cheat, raising the RPM band. Also if GM says 6000 max RPM, do as the US does, make them run revlimiter chips that are pulled when you pull your number. Seems pretty easy to do.
In reality, even the most cheated up crate out there might make 30 HP over a stock one.
Its also very interesting that that guys that go through the center like a missle and carry that additional speed down the straightaway, are ALWAYS the ones labled cheaters when they run crates.
I hate crates, but really when you combine a car that goes through the center, with next to no wheelspin from the crate, you wouldn't be able to beat them with 50 more horsepower........

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Offline ayjay

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Re: Another year year of history on the crate vs built issue
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2011, 05:33:03 PM »

In reality, even the most cheated up crate out there might make 30 HP over a stock one.
Its also very interesting that that guys that go through the center like a missle and carry that additional speed down the straightaway, are ALWAYS the ones labled cheaters when they run crates.
I hate crates, but really when you combine a car that goes through the center, with next to no wheelspin from the crate, you wouldn't be able to beat them with 50 more horsepower........

This is true whether there is a crate or built engine in the car and anyone that has been around the track for a while and has broken a lap down into segments and is not biased in their opinion can tell if the car is fast because of extra power or because the driver is wot 2 car lengths before anyone else.
The problem is the free pass and it is not getting addressed.

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« Last Edit: September 26, 2011, 06:04:18 PM by ayjay »

Offline THEWRENCH66

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Re: Another year year of history on the crate vs built issue
« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2011, 06:24:56 PM »
A little more cam (lift) on a built motor (some tracks already do this) and stiffer penalties for cheating up a crate (some tracks do this too) would do 2 things. Equal the playing field and punish the ones who cheat. Keep in mind, there is parity with builts and crates when the rules are written properly and enforced. Not that I endorse the crate, I think they should be eliminated (just my opinion). But for the whiners who think a cheated up motor, crate or built will win races, think again. Cars that turn and dont fade, combined with a good driver win races and championships.

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Offline bfe

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Re: Another year year of history on the crate vs built issue
« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2011, 06:38:45 PM »
Put a set of vortec heads on a built and dyno it Maybe they can tell everyone go ahead build your crate or run stock but no weight break.

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Offline K-man

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Re: Another year year of history on the crate vs built issue
« Reply #13 on: September 26, 2011, 07:05:32 PM »
Rob,

You're right when you say that "crates are here to stay" but unfortunately there are very few crates that haven't been turned into "magic motors" when they've been freshened up. A stock crate from the dealer is becoming a thing of the past.

Thewrench66,

The problem is when you combine "Cars that turn and dont fade, combined with a good driver win races and championships. with a "magic motor". Now there are very few drivers who are good that need to cheat but I'm sure there is the odd one. Most of the drivers I've run into are average drivers when you take the "special equipment" away from them.

Ajay,

It still boils down to what you said, "the free pass and it is not getting addressed".


On the horizon, and this is just my personal gut feeling, is the elimination of the LLM and then turn it into a full blown Late Model division. If this is the case, hang onto your butt because something going to get jammed up there when that happens.

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Offline Rob Hosking

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Re: Another year year of history on the crate vs built issue
« Reply #14 on: September 26, 2011, 07:17:53 PM »
That is an excellent point bfe, and one that I have made over the last 3 off seasons. I would assume out of the box vortecs would make a minimum of 20 hp over open chamber heads (lest we forget they are 64cc's)
 Leave the crates as they are, an economical option to continue/start out in racing, and let the builts run vortec heads.
In the event you have a crate and wish to make more power with it, declare the engine unsealed and put in a flat tappet camshaft and put whatever bottom end you want under it.  
I can attest, the lions share of the engine builders charges lie in the 40 year old cylinder heads, flat milling, installing hardened seats and screw in studs, bowl cutting, retrofitting to positive seals etc.
Not only would the vortec heads cure the cheating issues, they would also remove 1000$ + from a built engine.

My #1 complaint about the crates lies in the fact they are illegal in any class, vortec heads, 10 to 1 compression, racing intake manifold and roller cam. So even if they are sealed, they are STILL cheated up for any class they run in.

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