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Author Topic: The death of the crate engine  (Read 25125 times)
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Mobil1fan
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« Reply #15 on: July 24, 2007, 04:01:23 PM »

I think the best comparison would be the New Hampshire race back in 2000 where they ran restictor plates on a 1 mile . Do you remember that ? Let me give you the run down of that race ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ .Not a single pass for the lead in the intire race and may have been the worst NASCAR race I have ever seen .
Short of the Nemechek win in '99, find me ANY race at New Hampshire that wasn't boring...lol
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« Reply #15 on: July 24, 2007, 04:01:23 PM »

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FromTheStands
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« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2007, 04:14:39 PM »

I've heard all these arguments for the built engine before. If it's so bad to run one, why does the local Delaware engine builder complain because he would build these engine but it would cost him 15,000 to do it. Okay, so we all spend 15 grand and now the racing will be good? Why???
It's a ludicris amount of money to buy a competative engine. The only way to get ahead for sme people is to have more hp than the next guy. Is that what you advocating Pinecrest, I bet you like to watch the 24 hours of Daytona. It must tickle you think pink to see those Daytona prototypes blow by one of the GT or GT2 cars. I guess that's racing to you, what ever floats you boat.

I did say it was up to the track owners to give the racers a surface to run on. That along with a fair handicapping system and an agressive tech team will be the quickest way to increase car counts.
Having to spend 15,000 to 20,000 (conciderably more for LM)to have some builder hide horsepower in your engine is the reason we're at the state of car count we have now.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2007, 04:16:45 PM by FromTheStands » Logged
hill3
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« Reply #17 on: July 24, 2007, 04:16:11 PM »

the iroc series was stated so that no one would start the ndp 300. the crates that our slms can run have over 400hp,but the important number is torque, you can have a open motor peak at 600 plus hp but big deal,they still have to get it to the ground. the engine is just parts of the equation, these single line races that you are talking about is it possible that it is a single track groove, did they not reconfigure NH after the 300 snoozefest.
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« Reply #17 on: July 24, 2007, 04:16:11 PM »

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Pinecrest
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« Reply #18 on: July 24, 2007, 04:39:47 PM »

 The hardest argument I have to counter is Mobil1fans that New Hampshire is boring and since I cant really I will just say its far worst with a restictor plate.

 Fromthestands if you have an engine builder that says he needs $ 15,000 to build a 300 hp small block engine thats reliable you need a new engine builder.

 hill3 the IROC series was started to show case Porsche's in front of an American audience . I have not seen enough of the more powerful crates to judge yet but I dislike its weaker cousin .

 Now I have to go see a man about some bolts ...later
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LMS-QUEBEC
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« Reply #19 on: July 24, 2007, 04:40:30 PM »

ASA Late-Model and at Delaware used a crate engine that develop 400-425HP with 600cfm 4-barrels and about 375-385HP with Holley 4412 500cfm 2-barrels. This crate engine also allowed with OSS, WEST, some Pro-Stock sanctioning bodies like PASS or MPST.

LMS under ACT-Rules (Kawartha, Ottawa, LMS-ACT, LMS-Québec) used GM Crate Engine develop 350HP with Holley 4412 500cfm 2-barrels.

Since they used this GM Crate Engine, LMS dropped laps-time at pretty all racetracks they are.

An easiest way to control Crate engine, even some raceteams try to cheat the rules with "supposed "Sealed Bolt", just to go on Dyno to check engines... If one of them having different powerplant than all others... maybe to go under technical inspection... This is the ACT used and they never have mistake... All engine offered a different powerplant than all others were "illegal" after some unallowed parts were used into this engine...

Engine aren't the prob with the single file show... It's the drivers attitude...!!!

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Mobil1fan
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« Reply #20 on: July 24, 2007, 04:58:31 PM »

The hardest argument I have to counter is Mobil1fans that New Hampshire is boring and since I cant really I will just say its far worst with a restictor plate.
It didn't help much that Jeff Burton was hooked up at that place during the late 90s, either....If I recall correctly, he was always in the hunt there for the win from around 97-01, and was one of the few places he could qualify decent at that stage of his career...
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Thunder6
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« Reply #21 on: July 24, 2007, 06:24:05 PM »

I have to say that I don't have my head in the sand, as someone suggested. I stay fairly close to what's happening with racing at my track, believe me. Crate motors are a good deal, I will grant you that. If you want an engine for your pickup truck or your street rod. However I can build a built engine for my class that is much better for the same kind of money or a little more and it will not fall flat on it's face in the end of the straight. And the top running guys in my class have built engines. One of them ran crate for awhile, but runs a built engine now. Crate engines are for guys that either don't want to get involved in the parts selection or nitty gritty of engines. Pop it in and go. The track wants to see crates because theoretically then they have no tech issues with engines. I am not scared of selecting parts for what I want the engine to do, nor am I worried about the reliability factor either. Doesn't matter whether it is a crate or built it should be freshened after the season anyways. Bottom line... crates were originally intended for guys restoring cars, street rods and pickup trucks. They are for street operation with a little strip action on the side. If you don't believe me go back to the mid 90's when Mopar Performance (the originators of the crate engine package BTW) was advertising them, they had a 380 hp 360 and a 300 hp 360 (Magnum based not LA). They aimed the market at guys who had musclecars and street rods, not stock car racers. Oval track is just an offshoot of that program.
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Pinecrest
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« Reply #22 on: July 24, 2007, 07:38:05 PM »

 Well now I have seen seen the crate engine bolts with my own eyes and they are the real deal . The only mistake I made is that they are $140 + shipping. I now find out that these bolts have been available through several sources for over two years . The person that has them pointed out this add on the net that shows just how long you have been able to get them and as you can see the price has come down and the only thing that does that is availability.

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 The argument will be made by the built engine guys and the crate guys forever but now knowing this , how do you just let the crate guys sail past tech ?

 
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hill3
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« Reply #23 on: July 24, 2007, 07:57:07 PM »

you don't,if we have a issue wrt to a crate it goes on the dyno,if it is legal then the club pays,if it is not then the protested car will pay and be sent to bed with out supper and loss 15% of their points to date. as for catching them any tech guy with half a brain will be able to till if a crate has been worked by the action on the track. i do not advocate crates in the lower classes by itself,it should go hand in hand with a spec. engine, i have the ability to build a 3500 dollar street stock because of my vocation, that does not mean that all racers have this ability,they have to pay top dollar to a machine shop. they cost sky rockets due to mock up and remock up, not every racer can do this. give them the option to buy a 4200 dollar crate so that they can race. the asa crate package are purpose built for circle track racing not hot rodding and the grocery getter.
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« Reply #24 on: July 24, 2007, 08:16:22 PM »

A true Race Crate Motor should not exeed the cost of $8500.00 and there are plenty of them out there at that price... and less. For Example... Jasper is the high end at $8500.00, Blueprint is the low end at around $4500.00 so I cant see why the crate deal wouldnt work in any series.
Engine claim rules are in need to return to every race track, but must be based on a number that is real, and comparitive to the cost of replacement.
In short, if you run a Blueprint Engine and it has a street value of $4500.00 then that should be the claim rule, which allows the guy who lost it, the chance to replace it without spending more then whats in his wallet.
In every series that runs a crate rule or a build rule, teams will spend the extra to have it modified in HP and Torque, which kills the rule to start with. Now put in a Engine Claim Rule and you have a whole new approach to dealing with cheater motors, but still remains real in the cost to replace them.

The only other step to controlling the cost of race motors is allowing the series you run in, to own them, and disburse and rotate them bi-weekly. I know you dont want that to happen.

Last but not least- if you have a couple of guys in your series that win because of illegal motors and you dont have the money to post a engine claim.... just wreck the guy !!.
Motors mean nothing when it's stuffed in the wall. 
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Pinecrest
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« Reply #25 on: July 24, 2007, 08:37:27 PM »



Last but not least- if you have a couple of guys in your series that win because of illegal motors and you don't have the money to post a engine claim.... just wreck the guy !!.
Motors mean nothing when it's stuffed in the wall. 

 Now thats old school LOL.

 You make all good points but I am dealing in the here and now and I don't think that hill3 is being realistic with the dyno every crate that seems a bit to fast. As far as any tech man with half a brain being able to tell when a crate has been messed with I am not buying it . I have been accused on here of only having half a brain several times and I don't think I could tell a crate that has been apart had a nice valve job maybe massage the head a bit and put back together with replacement crate bolts .

 Now that I have seen what I have and know what I do I think the credibility of running crates because they are going to be all the same very questionable.
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« Reply #26 on: July 25, 2007, 09:34:04 AM »

Thunder6 I believe you are talking about the BSW thunder car crate program which is not very good, everyone else is talking about the LM & LLM crate program. I think the LLM crates at Barrie have been great, it has not been single file racing at Barrie & the biggest reason is the track or progressive banking. The motor is cheap & gives you almost no problems. If it was not for the crates I know we would not be in the LLM class & there are many others at Barrie who would be in the same boat. At Sunset the leader in points runs a built motor, yes, but you could put a thunder motor in Morrow's car & he would win with it. I know many at Sunset are thinking about going to the crate after seeing how well Tommy gets around the track.   
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hill3
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« Reply #27 on: July 25, 2007, 10:27:59 AM »

pc. maybe not realistic,but it is a fact. also if your tech person cannot catch this then you have the wrong tech person. we put a stop watch on the crate cars and monitor them, a dyno pull cost is roughly the same as a teardown,less in fact when you include the cost a the tamper proof bolts.aaaaaaaaaaaa why bother you are secure inside you box. the death of short track racing in Canada is not going to come from without, it will come from within because of attitudes that will not change,think outside the box pc. there is a whole world out there that might help save the sport.
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« Reply #28 on: July 25, 2007, 10:43:56 AM »

Crate motors are good for racing.  The alternative is spend, spend, spend.  The tracks and racers like and want crate motors.

Pinecrest ........... post on here who has the cheater bolts.

The solution is very simple (in my simple mind) catch one cheated crate motor, ban the racer, post his name, and continue to look for cheating.

Who in Ontario has dyno facilities that could on a Monday and Tuesday check 5 motors and have them ready for return to the racers Wed. morning???  AP in Windsor.

Heres another off the wall idea,  all crate motors are equal right, next race night after the feature the first 5 cars pull their motors and car 1's motor goes home with car 2, car 2's motor goes home with car 3, etc until car 5's motor goes home with car 1.

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« Reply #29 on: July 25, 2007, 11:55:28 AM »

someone in Niagara has the dyno too as Merrittville staff pulled the 3 crates of the top finishing sportmen class after one weekly June race and returned them within 24 hrs. The crate has been the saviour of the DIRT sportsman division. Dirt had some big suspensions this year for tampering also. Nice to know that you can run weekly on $25.00 worth of pump gas and with DIRT's rules, a car that is legal at Oshweken is legal at Orange County, NY 500 miles away. We can't get late model tracks 80 miles apart to agree on a set of rules!
« Last Edit: July 25, 2007, 11:58:49 AM by mike32 » Logged
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