March 30, 2017, 04:23:44 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
News: CRO is getting Revved up for the 2016 race season. This is our 17th Year running the site.
   
   Home   Blogs Help Canadian Racing Archives Project Articles Picasa Gallery Gallery GoogleTagged Links Login Register  

Attention: Guests by accessing CRO, you agree to the site terms. Please read the terms of CRO Click Here

Racing Classifieds - Post for Free
Montreal Inaugural Nascar Busch Series Napa 2000 DieCast Car 1:24
Saginaw 3 Speed Transmission
Micks Motorsports NCaTS Road Course Car

Kat's Metal Litter Box Canadian Rock & Metal Radio

Your Ad here for $175.00 a year



Sponsors Ads
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5
  Print  
Share this topic on FacebookShare this topic on GoogleShare this topic on Twitter
Author Topic: The death of the crate engine  (Read 25372 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
RANDY
Pit Crew
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 14

Referrals: 0

« Reply #45 on: July 26, 2007, 02:20:55 PM »

Good to see your joining the party Randy. I totally agree. Swapping engines is an interesting idea, I'm willing. Can I pick the one. I've heard of some crates visiting builders dyno's. I dont know first hand what the outcome was I can only assume they come out stronger or the guys wouldn't be doing it. As far as mine goes it was to a dyno right after we took delivery ( 3 years ago ) just to know were we stood. Valve springs over the last off season has been our freshening expense. So far we're happy with the way things are going with respect to performance. However in hind sight LM's probably should have had the smaller 350 HP crate, this would have created more unity accross Ontario with the LLM's. Cya Friday
I guess that would be the only part that wouldn't be exactly fair in swapping engines - some poor bugger has a 6 race old engine and gets your 3 year old "beater" in exchange - but I'm sure there would be a way to pro-rate the cost somehow.
I don't necessarily agree with having the same engine as the LLM - I think the #604 is much better suited for a LM and it is much more popular in this class throughout north america.
That's pretty cool that you can get three years out of it and only change springs - however - I have seen some guys that have had to buy a replacement because something failed internally and they were told that the dealership would not be able to have it repaired in time for the following week.
I would expect most teams to take their engine to a dyno and optimize the carb and timing and possibly try a few things to gain everything they can - legally.
No - you are not allowed to choose which one you get - unless I can interest you in a Ford built motor .................. forget it, it wouldn't fit anyways and that damn distributor is still at the wrong end.........
Save us a spot beside you friday.
We can have beers and sort this whole mess out in 1 night.
See you then.

Randy
Logged
Canadian Racing Motorsports Race Car, Racing Track News
« Reply #45 on: July 26, 2007, 02:20:55 PM »

 Logged
Pinecrest
King of Canadian Racing Online
Series Owner
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 530


Referrals: 0

« Reply #46 on: July 26, 2007, 06:46:33 PM »


Pinecrest is saying the bolts are readily available - this is the original post.
I think his point is: How are the tracks keeping an eye on this and what are they doing to keep it under control? answer.......a little bit - but not nearly enough and they had better get off their keyster's before it gets out of control.
If you think you can get away with changing rocker arm ratio's, pushrod lengths, compression ratio or anything else that is very simple to check - you had better check the "best before date" on your prescription because you will not get away with it for long.Randy Shaw
#82 Late Model
 

 RANDY its not just me saying the bolts are readily available  ,its a fact . I gave the source  where the the ones I saw came from and a link to some chic that was selling them in Michigan and hill3 says he knows where you can buy them out west. I have not confirmed the other two places that I was told you can get them but if you want I will .
 The people I know that have them are not rocket scientists but they know what they can get away with . All they want to do is put a multi angle valve job on the head and maybe work the spring pockets . They would like to replace the cam  or regrind it with less overlap so the engine dose not fall on it face at rpm but they know they have to keep the same lift and about the same duration , just change the base circle .

 Your a smart guy so forget about improving the cam just the valve job ,thats maybe 15 to 25 hp wouldn't you think ?

 Maybe I am just skeptical but now when I see a crate I wonder if its been massaged.


« Last Edit: July 27, 2007, 04:02:51 AM by Pinecrest » Logged

The opinions expressed here are mine and not necessarily those of CRO or its other members , but should be .
RANDY
Pit Crew
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 14

Referrals: 0

« Reply #47 on: July 27, 2007, 10:41:41 AM »


 RANDY its not just me saying the bolts are readily available  ,its a fact . I gave the source  where the the ones I saw came from and a link to some chic that was selling them in Michigan and hill3 says he knows where you can buy them out west. I have not confirmed the other two places that I was told you can get them but if you want I will .
 The people I know that have them are not rocket scientists but they know what they can get away with . All they want to do is put a multi angle valve job on the head and maybe work the spring pockets . They would like to replace the cam  or regrind it with less overlap so the engine dose not fall on it face at rpm but they know they have to keep the same lift and about the same duration , just change the base circle .

 Your a smart guy so forget about improving the cam just the valve job ,thats maybe 15 to 25 hp wouldn't you think ?

 Maybe I am just skeptical but now when I see a crate I wonder if its been massaged.

I was simply pointing out the original question that you asked.
It doesn't matter from where they are available - just pointing out that you indicated that you physically held them in your hand and that it is not just speculation that they are available.
Changing the base circle of the lobe will make the pushrod length/rocker arm geometry even worse - you would be better to grind a new shaft and keep the base circle as large as possible - tell me how a tech guy is going to be able to degree a camshaft at the track? How can they possibly find true TDC without pulling the head?
Sorry, but I think the valve job on those heads from the factory are not that bad and I would expect maybe a 10hp increase at the very most.
Working the spring pockets is another no-no because they are checking seat pressure also.
Again, you never know if it's as produced or not and until somebody puts a program in place to deter anybody from playing around, you and everybody else can speculate all you want.
Logged
Canadian Racing Motorsports Race Car, Racing Track News
« Reply #47 on: July 27, 2007, 10:41:41 AM »

 Logged
Greasemonkey
Series Owner
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 740


Referrals: 0

« Reply #48 on: July 27, 2007, 12:25:58 PM »

I was simply pointing out the original question that you asked.
It doesn't matter from where they are available - just pointing out that you indicated that you physically held them in your hand and that it is not just speculation that they are available.
Changing the base circle of the lobe will make the pushrod length/rocker arm geometry even worse - you would be better to grind a new shaft and keep the base circle as large as possible - tell me how a tech guy is going to be able to degree a camshaft at the track? How can they possibly find true TDC without pulling the head?
Sorry, but I think the valve job on those heads from the factory are not that bad and I would expect maybe a 10hp increase at the very most.
Working the spring pockets is another no-no because they are checking seat pressure also.
Again, you never know if it's as produced or not and until somebody puts a program in place to deter anybody from playing around, you and everybody else can speculate all you want.


Randy on a couple of points you are correct.

1 - Changing the base circle of the lobe will make the pushrod length/rocker arm geometry even worse - you would be better to grind a new shaft and keep the base circle as large as possible. Very true, Changing the lobe centerlines (108/110 Lobe separation) would help the top end but would be cheating which I don't condone.
2 - How can they possibly find true TDC without pulling the head? Easy, you put the degree wheel and pointer on the crank, you use a dummy spark plug that hits the piston, rotate the engine until it contacts the piston, measure that angle on the wheel, rotate the engine (carefully) in the opposite direction until the dummy plug hits the piston, take the total number of degrees and find the middle, thats TDC.

3 - Sorry, but I think the valve job on those heads from the factory are not that bad and I would expect maybe a 10hp increase at the very most.
Working the spring pockets is another no-no because they are checking seat pressure also. We’ve noted on the dyno that doing the valve job properly gives you between 5 and 10 hp gain.

 Greasemonkey.

« Last Edit: July 27, 2007, 12:45:16 PM by Greasemonkey » Logged
hill3
Banned
Series Owner
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 707

Referrals: 0

« Reply #49 on: July 27, 2007, 12:30:13 PM »

bolts or not lets be honest here all the crate does(tech wise) is make it harder to cheat and i feel easier to catch with a tech crew that has some mechanical talent,but the tracks and clubs must have the gonads to let the tech people do the job not come back with the line if we tech to hard the cars will not come,never releasing if you tech hard the clean racer will stay or come back. it has been my experience that those who bi*** the most about tech are those who are cheating the most.
Logged

THIS IS SPARTA!!!!!      -PARA TODA MI VIDA-
RANDY
Pit Crew
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 14

Referrals: 0

« Reply #50 on: July 27, 2007, 12:44:13 PM »

Hey Grease,
I really doubt a piston stop would work through the spark plug hole due to the angle of the hole in the heads.
Now I could be wrong on this, but I don't think it would work.
Also, with the c/r of the limited engine - I doubt they are running the deck clearance that tight (I expect the piston to be down the bore about .020) which will make it even worse.
Again, I may be wrong on this - it would have to be tried.
As for the camshaft specs - I think that would soften it too much on the bottom end and you wouldn't be able gain it back quick enough.
I would suggest a different profile - but I would have to do some more math to confirm it.

RS

P.S. Hill3 - That's my point - thay have to start doing more than they are currently or it's going to get way out of hand. The guys complaining are also the same guys that are absolutely convinced that the fast cars are cheating and think that they are also going to have to do it to keep up. Fact is, nobody can tell these guys without a doubt that they are wrong and show them the proof to back it up.
Logged
hill3
Banned
Series Owner
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 707

Referrals: 0

« Reply #51 on: July 27, 2007, 12:54:41 PM »

then randy the teams need to start putting pressure on the tracks or sanctioning bodies to get tough on teching. hit them where it hurts, the teams control car count use that no cars no show no fans no money they should see the light or go extinct
Logged

THIS IS SPARTA!!!!!      -PARA TODA MI VIDA-
FromTheStands
No Soup for You
Contributing Members
Series Owner
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 474


Wanna be Grand Poohba

Referrals: 0

« Reply #52 on: July 27, 2007, 02:39:15 PM »

I can't even begin to get into the technical side of things that you guys are but it's obvious that there are as many ways to check an engine as there are ways to be creative.

The only thing I see is what happens on the track.

The Delaware Super Stocks that run the 602 engine recently ran qualifying for their special show format.
The top 5 were 2/10ths apart, the top 10 cars were less than 5/10ths apart and the top 20 were under 1 sec. apart. On a 1/2 mile that's some pretty close qualifying.
Of course, sand bagging could have been going on but I find it unlikely.

There was a time when one or two cars would easily have over 1 sec.on the entire field. Not any more.

Now we just need 2 grooves.

I hope your call to step up tech inspections doesn't go unheeded. Crate motors are saving racetracks all over. I'm sure there will be a trickle down effect from just this posting started by Pincrest. Maybe that was his intent all along. So maybe he isn't John Saunders after all.
Logged
Pinecrest
King of Canadian Racing Online
Series Owner
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 530


Referrals: 0

« Reply #53 on: July 27, 2007, 07:47:16 PM »

 No I am not John Saunders .

 I do hope that threads like this wake up some of the techs that don't even bother to look at the crates . I think there are a few cheater crates out there probally not many but there are a few and they have to weed them out and come down like a ton of bricks on the guys that get caught .

 I am a built engine guy but I do realize that crates are the future but that doesn't mean I have to like it . Hey I was against putting the engines in the back of Indy cars and obsoleting those beautiful roadsters and I still think midgets should be running Offys they sounded soooo good . I know I am a dinosaur but its just how it is.

 I also realize there is a bunch of kids with their baseball caps on backwards reading this going "what the hell is an Offy"  go ask your grandfather.
Logged

The opinions expressed here are mine and not necessarily those of CRO or its other members , but should be .
Thunder6
Don't mess with Tex
Series Owner
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1500

Referrals: 0

« Reply #54 on: July 27, 2007, 11:14:43 PM »

I know what an Offy is Pinecrest. Aren't they all museum pieces now? They came shortly after the wheel. I'm just kidding, personally I wish I could have been around in the heyday of Can-Am, to see the Turbopanzer, Chapparals and McLarens in that virtually unlimited racing series. In some ways I think the old days were better, maybe not as safe, but those guys were gladiators.
Logged

"Dont be BEECH! And as always comrades, have nice day" fpsrussia
hill3
Banned
Series Owner
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 707

Referrals: 0

« Reply #55 on: July 28, 2007, 01:07:32 AM »

hey pinecrest do any of the tracks in Ont race a Bennett baggy. stand alone crates i believe are not the future, crates with a  spec engine i feel is the best of both worlds for slm and former cascars,maybe with a 6500 dollar crate rule and proper teching for sure
Logged

THIS IS SPARTA!!!!!      -PARA TODA MI VIDA-
4bbl
Race Fan
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 2

Referrals: 0

« Reply #56 on: July 29, 2007, 11:47:47 AM »

ok guys, save me some time & effort.  What are the phone numbers, names, places, web sites, etc where I can get some crate engine bolts?
« Last Edit: July 29, 2007, 11:49:40 AM by 4bbl » Logged
hill3
Banned
Series Owner
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 707

Referrals: 0

« Reply #57 on: July 29, 2007, 12:32:23 PM »

hey 4bbl,i can sell you a set for $6100,i will even give you the rest of the engine for free,u pay shipping
Logged

THIS IS SPARTA!!!!!      -PARA TODA MI VIDA-
caa
Pit Crew
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 17

Referrals: 0

« Reply #58 on: July 29, 2007, 09:27:31 PM »

hey guys since we are on the topic of crate motors does anyone know where i could find a good used crate(A.C.T.)Huh if so e-mail me @matthew.moffitt@sympatico.ca
Logged
4bbl
Race Fan
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 2

Referrals: 0

« Reply #59 on: July 30, 2007, 09:13:09 AM »

Hill3, I don't need another crate engine, I just need a better crate engine.
Logged
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5
  Print  

 
Jump to:  


Sponsors Ad
Powered by EzPortal
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines
Refferals System by CreateAForum.com | Sitemap
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.236 seconds with 34 queries.

Google visited last this page December 24, 2016, 06:24:45 AM