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Author Topic: Regarding our moderation policies  (Read 2709 times)
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Shadowracer
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« on: December 28, 2007, 07:50:58 PM »

OK. Let's talk about some stuff.

There's been some tensions boiling beneath the surface here and we don't want that. I just want to clarify a couple of things that might help understand how this works.

Firstly, that post about "settling it with fisticuffs" literally slipped past us. I missed it, Evan missed it, and no one reported it. I didn't find out till later that something like that had even been posted. And unfortunately that thread seemed to be the catalyst for a lot of the BS that is happening now. (and mostly contributed to this underlying feeling that the OSS has some sort of "protected" status that seems to have ticked everyone off.) And for that I personally apologize. We missed it.

Having said that, If you see something that goes that far out of line, please report it. By the time it was pointed out to me the post had already been edited. It may be hard to believe, but even those of us who spend a lot of time on the boards do not sit here like lifeguards on a beach waiting for someone to step out of line. If you hit the "report to moderator" button, it goes right to all the mod's email.

Here's our usual MO:

When something is reported, or if one of us catches something that's iffy, we go to the mod forum and post something like "hey I just got this/noticed this. What do you guys think?"

Then we bounce it off the CRO Code of conduct. If it's coming close to a violation, we'll do a red text post with a warning. If its an obvious violation (ie, anything that someone who read the CoC would know wasn't kosher, but did it anyway), we'll warn/mute/ban the offender. If we're too late, and the thread got out of hand, then we'll state the violation in red and then lock the thread, so its still there and folks will know what we were thinking. The thread would notmally be deleted a day or two later. (I personally prefer to leave locked threads up, but the other mods/admin apparently have different opinions on that.)

I want to strenuously protest the notion that "If you don't agree on certain points, then you will be moderated" feeling that seems to be running rampant here. Its just not true. But there IS a Code of Conduct here at CRO. Its here, its staying, get used to it. No one said you can't voice an opinion. We only ask that you think before you hit "post", be respectful about it, and don't make it personal. Its rule 1. Are we censoring ideas? No. Are we enforcing rules? Yes, but only if you're being a jerk.

If someone posts something you don't agree with, and you begin to attack the poster instead of the idea, then you will be moderated.

If you swear, you will be moderated. (if you're not sure about swearing...check George Carlin's 7 words you cant say on TV...it applies here.)

If you trash talk, you will be moderated. (trash talking is trash talking even if you're not swearing...we enforce the spirit of the rules as well as the letter of the rules.) 

We put that Code of Conduct up, and every single one of you agreed to it, or else you wouldn't be able to post here. So why complain when we enforce it?

Its all very simple.

This is an open forum that is visible to the world. We have standards we are trying to uphold. We are trying to make CRO a fun and informative place that people, tracks, fans, organizations and racers would like to participate in. (We'd love to see more fans. But the atmosphere here doesn't seem to allow for it) So, no...you CAN'T just say any old thing you like. It doesn't work that way.

We knew going in that guys would be resistant to the idea of moderation. So we're taking all this with a grain of salt. Growing pains happen.

But I'll make this deal with you: If anyone has a beef, or a question, then is the thread for it. Say what's on your mind. We won't moderate you unless you swear or attack anyone (mods included) personally.

Bear in mind though that if you say "The code of conduct sucks" or some such, we'll just ask why you agreed to it then.

So...if anyone has a question, fire away. I'll be on later to answer if I can.

But right now, I have a Christmas party to go to with a bunch of great friends that I'd have never known if it wasn't for CRO.

Talk to you soon,
Trev
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« on: December 28, 2007, 07:50:58 PM »

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hill3
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« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2007, 10:37:59 AM »

well put, i too missed the fisticuffs line, it was edited by the time a saw that thread. i personally think that some times certain posters are to defensive, the only time i felt i have had to step in is for language and character attacks. i will stand by my calls and also stand by the calls of the other mods. i also feel that if one posts on cro then one should be ready to have the ideas discussed but to go at someone over minor grammer errors is petty and looking for a fight. there are certain lines in the sand that do not need to be crossed and will not be crossed. anyone with a problem is more than welcome to pm or email myself the info is on my profile. for me it comes down to this treat other members like you want to be treated,do not say things on here that you would not say face to face, to hide behind a keyboard and a username and lobe balls of venom and hate is small and shows no character
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« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2007, 12:51:59 PM »

Hill, if you are referring to my comments regarding the spelling errors and grammar, I take offense. I am far from petty. I have never attacked anyone regarding these mistakes on a regular post. I am sure I have made them. I do, however, feel that if you are putting out a press release for public consumption, it should be perfect, no mistakes. This CONSTRUCTIVE criticism is not only directed at the OSS, but any other series. I have read NCATS, Alstar, OSCAAR etc.. releases with the same problems.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2007, 12:55:12 PM by slapdown » Logged
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« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2007, 12:51:59 PM »

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hill3
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« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2007, 01:02:22 PM »

i agree that true press releases should be professional, but to keelhaul someone for a grammer error is over the line. but notice i will say you have the right to your opinion wrt this matter. and no it was not aimed at you alone there were others also. last point i would bet dollars or to wooden nickels that dave receives little to no monies for his directorship in the oss, likely just saw a need and decided to help like so many do though out the community of motorsports. keep giving the volunteers flack and one day in the not to distant future we will have to pay these people and this will lead to a rise in cost of racing. cro is not demanded that everyone hold hands and sing kumbai just that we respect each other and give each other the space to make a spelling mistake or two or three. jmnsho
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« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2007, 02:32:19 PM »

Speaking as one who has been moderated (warned) recently (as part of the fistcuffs thread)- what I wrote did not include swearing or threats or anything else. What I wrote was a statement of facts regarding the business activities of the individual who made the fisticuffs comment.
There is a pattern to the recent moderator activities, however, that bothers many of the members.
The OSS representative who posts here tends to make rather wild unsubstantiated comments (as Shadowracer himself said on another forum) and others call him out. This usually results in an exchange of comments that lead to insults and end with other people (but not the OSS rep) being moderated. This leads to a perception of favoritism.
If OSS or any other organization want to post press releases on a public forum, they open themselves to comments on their content and should make sure the content is accurate and factual.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2007, 03:19:57 PM by oldbill » Logged
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« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2007, 03:36:43 PM »

I applaud members like hill3 who see through the smoke but still acknowledge the facts, and I agree with the fact of an unpaid person to do a job out of consideration for the sport should be cut some slack. Yes, English and Grammer are all part of a professional press release although 99% of these releases are being written by a paid writer.

I would sooner put up with a couple mistakes then be left out in the cold with no news what so ever from a series.
Can you imagine if someone like Dale JR. was asked to write his own release's....Now that would return a massive amount of mistakes, but in most cases would be over looked because of the writer.

I personally cannot understand why mid writes or posts on here as everytime he does, the Grammer Police are out to get him. When I write articles for mags and forward them on, it's the mags responsability to edit them before they go to press, unless I want to take the position of Writer/Editor and not in a million years will that ever happen for these exact reasons.

I have just joined CRO, but have been a guest for more then two years and felt it was my time to step in and give my two cents worth on situations like this. As a Writer, we have two theory's. The first being tell the storey, and the second is to never rebutale over statements made regarding our intent.
A fellow Journalist once told me regardless what you ever write, only half of the storey will ever be credited, and the other half will be scrutinized by other Writers.
That theory plays into the deck here, but lets face it, the people scrutinizing are not Writers, they are fans.

It is easier to play in the sand box with friends, then it is to have bully's take away your toy's !   
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« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2007, 03:51:10 PM »

There is a pattern to the recent moderator activities, however, that bothers many of the members.
The OSS representative who posts here tends to make rather wild unsubstantied comments (as Shadowracer himself said on another forum) and others call him out. This usually results in an exchange of comments that lead to insults and end with other people (but not the OSS rep) being moderated. This leads to a perception of favoritism.

In response, and just to be clear, this is what I wrote on that other board. And I stand behind it.

--------------------------------------
But as it stands, its hard to say whats up with the OSS. On another board, the OSS brass has been posting some pretty pie-in-the-sky stuff. Other guys are calling them out on it, then animosity and criticism follows and a lot of posts are being deleted. There's ignorance on all sides and its pretty messy. (and I get to moderate it all...woohoo.  Angry )

If the OSS has all the guys signed up that they're saying, it should be a hell of a program. But, there's a lot of debate about where the line is between their optomism and their reality. No one really knows for sure.

Strangely, it doesn't seem to stop anyone from forming an opinion anyway. 

----------------------------------------------

I don't have an exact record of who has been warned/banned/muted in the past. I know we had a few incidents early on with a few members of the Barrie/Sunset crowd. That seems to be fixed. There haven't actually been that many that have been warned.

Let me suggest to not take it personally because a thread you posted in has been deleted. (and again, let me go on record as saying I personally don't beleive in deleting threads...but that is the OP's choice. The CRO mods are not normally in the business of deleting entire threads) The only time you need to take it personally is if you've actually been moderated...meaning we've red texted you and/or a colored dot has appeared on your profile and you received the status of "warned" or some such. 

Fact is, sometimes threads deteriorate so far that there's no point in letting it continue. That is our judgement to make and our cross to bear. It comes down to "is letting this continue good for CRO as a whole, or is it not?". Sure, sometimes there's good stuff posted between the garbage, but as I said earlier, we don't sit here like lifeguards at the beach. Sometimes have to take the attitude that "OK, these guys aren't going to let it go so lock the whole thing and hope that gets the message through."

We don't expect everyone to like it but we do what's best for the site.

As far as the OSS guys getting favored by moderators, you must also realize that this seems to be the big hot-button thing going on here at CRO. No other threads are getting locked because the garbage isn't flying anywhere else. And...just to reiterate again...the OP is usually the one who deletes threads, not us. (Unless the thread is already locked and they can't delete it...then we'll do it if they ask us, same as we would for anyone else.)

I would like to add an admonishment here with regards to the OSS stuff. Quite frankly, the resentment seems to have piled up to the point where MidAmerica can't even say "the sky is blue" without getting called out. We, the mods take a little of the blame for that for not spotting the "fisticuffs" post that started all this. (a little of the blame. Remember no one actually reported it to us.)

But I am gonna say that a lot of the criticisms that have come out are somewhat unfounded. OK, he's said there's potentially 40 cars (or whatever) going to race in the series. maybe thats pie in the sky and maybe it isn't. We don't REALLY know until the first race. Criticising at this point is like criticizing a movie you haven't even seen yet. If you're going to criticize anyway, back it up with something solid...or wait until after the first race and you KNOW how many cars showed up. Then fire away.

And if a press release is full of grammar errors, so what? What's it to you? If I recieve a store flyer that is full of typos, misspellings, bad grammar, and stuff I find hard to beleive, then chances are I won't go to that store. 

But, I'm not going to stand outside their store and picket it in order to show them how smart I am either. If I did, they'd be justified in calling the cops, actually.

So...thats my afternoon ramble.

Trev
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« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2007, 04:25:46 PM »

midamerica here folks, and I said midamerica not OSS !!
Guess what- I got a warning yesterday from CRO for something I said...fitting but worthy !!
I want to clear up some things in point, just to end the gossip.

#1- I think me and 2fst4u got into it once and I called him out...he didn't show...and we both behaved stupidly. Sorry !
#2- I work for the OSS out of pocket which takes up about 30 hours per week. I write most of the stuff and what I type is true to the best of my ability. If you don't like something I have said email me and we will discuss it like gentlemen.
#3- Yes I did say 40 cars and I also said we were still building the car count. I know this number sounds large but we have been busting our butts to build the OSS and it is slowly paying off.
#4- The Driver Roster to date will go out, but not from me as I think you guys don't believe it. Instead a very worthy member with racing history amongst you will release the list. Dave Alexander is verifying the list and he just emailed me and said there are 40 drivers...soon to come out.
#5- I am a Racer at heart and very competitive. If you crash me I will crash back, thats just my nature. I am sure most of you can admit to the same thing. I cant make excuses for what I say or do, but I can say I stand behind what ever I say and if I am wrong I will admit it.
#6- I have landed a bunch of Sponsors for the OSS, and made allot of deals as well signed allot of tracks.
When I do so I try to keep the members of CRO up to date as that was the agreement between myself and Evan-CRO and will continue to be that way. You will here less of me as now I have to find my own sponsors.
#7- Since joining CRO I have taken note on how the arguments start, (and I have been known to be in the middle of a few), so when I delete something or ask to have it done it's because the basis of the storey was taken over by argument and we don't need sponsors to see that form of bickering.

To all, as I said earlier, I am competitive and will always do what it takes to remain that way. I might argue with 2fst4u or rogerdodger but trust me I spend the same amount of time arguing with folks like NASCAR, or Officials, or even my own Son. That's just the way I am and I mean no harm by it.
If I have offended anyone here I apologize and if I do it again without knowing, tell me.

Happy New Years to all and to all a good night !!!!     
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« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2007, 05:07:05 PM »

This wasn't the place for this. Let's keep it about moderation policies and not particular posters. This thread is for the mods to express what we're doing because some folks have been wondering. We thought it was time to have a forum on our policies.

This isn't actually about the OSS or Mid or anyone else. We simply use the example to illustrate. Let's keep it that way please.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2007, 05:11:42 PM by Shadowracer » Logged

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« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2007, 01:35:45 PM »


I would sooner put up with a couple mistakes then be left out in the cold with no news what so ever from a series.

I agree 100%. Over the years, we've lost a lot of good people, just because they have decided it's just not worth it to post on here and that's a shame and a loss to the rest of us who look forward to hearing their opinions!
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« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2007, 01:56:52 PM »

I Cant agree enough AutoAssembler. I just joined and wonder why I did ??
I sent mid an email and he responded saying he has had enough of the whole deal.
That is sad to hear when infact as I understand it, CRO sponsors the OSS for the use of this site.
Its a shame when you have 1355 members that like this site but are afraid to use it because of a handful of adolescent trash talking kids. He also informed me that if you want to follow the series you can go to www.ontariosportsmanseries.com if that helps at all.
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« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2007, 04:28:33 PM »

 I'm a little new at this. If I have a question to pose directly to someone on this board, I can pm them? Is this a direct email that only the other person will see? Perhaps a little more info on the different ways of communication on this board would also be a good idea. I'm still trying to learn what half of the short forms stand for, though I think I've got most of them.
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Shadowracer
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« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2007, 06:04:58 PM »

I'm a little new at this. If I have a question to pose directly to someone on this board, I can pm them? Is this a direct email that only the other person will see? Perhaps a little more info on the different ways of communication on this board would also be a good idea. I'm still trying to learn what half of the short forms stand for, though I think I've got most of them.

No. A PM is a personal message that you send via this site. You have an inbox that you can see if you go above to where it says "my messages". If you have messages, there will be a little number beside telling you how many are in your inbox. (there'll be one in yours right now...I just sent you one.)  However, most guys have theirs set up so they get a notification in their email that they have a PM. To send a PM, just go inder the person's username and click the icon that looks like a comic book dialog bubble.)

Personal messages are private and not visible to anyone else. And frankly, sometimes we wish folks'd use it more often. In fact, if you see a post that is directed at one poster in particular, its a good bet that it should have been done via PM...but we're all guilty of that and we let it slide unless its really hostile.

Some guys also have an icon of an envelope under their username. These are guys that have provided a link to email them directly, Not everyone does that. (look under my name at the right of this post and you'll see it.) That will go right to their email.

Hope this helps.

Trev
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« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2007, 08:12:45 PM »

Well I guess this is a good place to say if you members want to fight like kids do it somewhere else and I don't want to hear that CRO is sponsored OSS on the net so we take sides as Mid knows this message includes him as well he gets no special treatment here.

If I have to give a temp ban or a long term ban to a long time member so be it.

Most people don't don't pm me to tell me how they feel about this BS of late but I encourage you the members to email and let me know how you feel about it as a couple of members are not going to ruin the site for the other 1300+ members that come here to get a racing fix and if you don't like the rules and don't agree to them no one forced to to agree to them and if you think we are so unfair go to another site and see how long they will put up with your BS as I know a lot of other race sites give you one warning then you are banned. So I know CRO has been more then fair about how they handle bans and warnings and we didn't take sides of anyone.

Also this could be considered a personal attack on Mid or the OSS series as this is all I see people doing. I don't see this on other series or members.

If you don't like the format of the series does this give you the right to attack it? Just don't read the board and you don't have to worry about it. If you feel the posts undermind the professionalism of the OSS contact the directors, don't fight about here as this questions you professionalism of your posts.

If I have to clean house to make the site enjoyable again that is what I will do. Continue to test my patients and the mods and you will find you are not welcome here this has gone past the point of opinions and it will stop. I would like to enjoy the holidays and not have to deal with this BS.
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