Time for a new class?

[kevilay]

On the night I was there, V8 stocks and Trucks were on the bill with SS.

The numbers of V8 stock and Truck could've been better, the show was good because the drivers made it that way, but I couldn't help thinking that if those two classes were one it would've been much better. Having just one big class, rather than two classes I think would've made it better and freed up space on the bill for something like a SINGLE class of mini-stock.

The numbers to justify what I am saying;
http://www.mylaps.com/en/events/1043041

There were 8 V8 stocks running 21-22 second lap times
There were 11 trucks running the same 21-22 second lap times

Based on lap times, the two classes are equal with each other and therefor I can't see a reason they can't be run together as one. A class of 19 is a strong class, classes of 8 and 11 are on the weak side. Splitting the field in my view is the difference between strong and weak.

Couple things. I agree with you on a couple points here. (and your previous that was long so I decided not to quite). Chaos cars were not cancelled. Chaos cars and bone stock cars were and are the same thing. They called it choas cars because they used to have 4/5 cars and do laps around barrels and stuff. When the class rapidly expanded to the full track and called them Bone Stock Chaos cars. They are starting to drop the choas name to try to be taken as a more serious racing class. They are all the exact same cars with the exact same rules. Just progression over 5 years or so.

As for trucks and v8 stocks. In 2013 they did run them together as two separate classes but raced at the same time. I have no understanding of why this happened or why it stopped.  Anyone have some information on this?


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[Dougy109]

I believe Enrie was speaking of Enduro, and yes we were in on those runs around three years ago. The co-mingled Enduro's never took off, and I honestly don't know why. I cited a few reasons, but really there was no reason it failed, that I could see. It could work, with cars that are close in speed, like mini's and V8 guys. Run those two together, possibly. Added safety gear in mind of course, but have at it.

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[notingtolose]

that was a long read and i hated it btw.......i agree l.m to s.s is a huge difference in yearly budget same with going from a truck to a s.s is a big budget difference. as for mini stocks as much as im like dougy 1 of the first to run enduro with a 4cyl i just dont see a full scale mini stock div working at delaware right now and truthfully we dont need it. the opens are ok for now.i would agree with cardriver we do have the best s.s division in ontario id even say canada. just curious what car you were cardriver? im guessing 6 or the 87.

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[streetstocker33]

I think your economics are a little off.....ive run LM and S.S. at delaware and the budget isnt even in the ballpark,  and that wasnt a competitive LM, home built cars are still very competitive. 2 of the last 3 championships and the current track record holder weren't built on the jig of any of the big name builders and stock crates are VERY competitive and I dont see them at a disadvantage.

Maybe I didn't say it the right way.

What you are spending on a top SS is what you should be spending on a LM. A SS will be in the 15-20K range which should be where a LM is. I know the LM costs are equally out of control also, so you are pricing someone who should be in LM out of LM.

The 602 crate program is what you make of it. Tech has to police it, and if they are policing 602s they can equally police builts, which in my view defeats any advantage of the 602. You guys are light years ahead of the rest of the track by allowing Vortex heads on built motors.

If someone is building at home without a jig and is taking on the big dollar name built cars then they are an extremely talented builder. There are not many guys who can do that, not enough to fill a field of them, so for the class to have any cars the cost to compete becomes the cost to get a car built at the big name shops. I believe Chenoweth cleaned up a few years back in a Mike Poluton/Top Side camero, Mike being guy who builds great stuff in a 2 car garage. It can be done, just there are not many of those guys.

I'm currently no where near the $15, 000 mark and feel like when my ducks are in a row im fairly competitive, BUT, I do realize I can/want to do far more work on my own. There are a few cars built on I beams out there, and atleast one won a race for sure
 Last year......I think $8000-$10000 is realistic for a lot of guys, I think I wouldve came under the $8000 mark when my car was new, but that was with a $600 crate motor and a lot of used parts and I think I was fairly competitive......Most of it comes down too how much time a person/team is willing to invest.

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[biffisgreat]

They musta forgot a Zero  http://www.canadianracingonline.ca/1266-delaware-late-model/details.html

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[cardriver]

As for trucks and v8 stocks. In 2013 they did run them together as two separate classes but raced at the same time. I have no understanding of why this happened or why it stopped.  Anyone have some information on this?

Are you talking about V8 stocks with the trucks or enduros with the trucks?

Enduro style racing with trucks presents a problem. A minimally striped truck at stock height and near stock weight vs. a poorly prepared Civic isn't going to end well in a crash.

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[Enduro50]

I also think a whole new division is definitely NOT the way to go.  Let the Bonestocks grow more first and if in a couple years there is enough demand for it, try a mini stock division then.  Too many divisions with not enough vehicles makes for a boring night of racing for fans.  I disagree that enduro should be mixed in with V8 stocks.  There is too much of a time difference, and on this point I have to agree with cardriver that the V8 Stocks should be mixed with the trucks.  Much closer lap times and that would give us 20 vehicles racing on the track at once in the feature.

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[Dougy109]

You're a smart cookie Marky, and I respect your opinion. People as a rule didn't like the co-mingled truck-V8-Enduro deal. You're right on about times and whatnot, but it won't work. There's actually people who watch nothing but Napcar truck series. Literally, I became one for a year, when it was soo good. Truck people are exactly that, there's no changing them.

I could be wrong, and if I am point it out brother. You are right about lap times though, and competition.

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[cardriver]

Truck people are exactly that, there's no changing them.

But what is your market?

Someone who only likes trucks is going to be niche in my view. The family that comes to see racing couldn't care less. I'm sorry but with a field of only 8, it kinda shows where the interest is even is all 8 of them won't race anything but a truck. The value to the majority of fans who couldn't care about the body style is they are now watching 2 lesser races when 1 bigger one would be more exciting and have them return the next week.

What's better, getting to race your truck for sure next year because there is a field of 20 truck/cars, or the possibility you will be cancelled with your equipment obsoleted because its a one track class? Is that worth someone's truck only principle?

Personally I dislike FWD mini stocks and wouldn't be caught dead in one until it was my only option or I was able to run it for free. Sometimes you have to put your ideal choice second when you look at all the other factors.

I don't think that is even being harsh. Out this way there was a "truck" (a-body with a chopped truck body on it) running in Thunder at Mosport. None of the other track would allow it to run, it completely met the rules save for truck tin. So maybe to the diehard truck guys the fact the Delaware is the only track the supports them at all, might be reason enough to be vary happy.

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[Dougy109]

We're on the same page, the fans felt it was a bandaid. Even though they could be identical underneath. I would rather have them both running to fill the field, give us something to watch. It's one they have to look at themselves. Trucks are slowly making a comeback, and hope they get more out. Heck, there has to be four or five chassis laying around still at this point. I think the whole argument for new classes, and whatnot could go on and on. The bottom line, is it's a big jump for the guys starting out, in Bones.. then jump to trucks or V8's. Couple grand for a year, then considerably more for a Crate style ride. I just hope they figure out a common ground.

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[kevilay]

+1 for truck counts I bought one and Ill be out there racing next year. I can also point you towards two more trucks you can buy for under 3k each

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[dogxray]

I agree leave the trucks the way they are. it is slowly growing and was very surprised during the autograph sessions this year with the enthusiasm and good comments of how much people really like the truck racing series. Was completely taken by surprise to be honest.
Kevins coming on board with a truck the Bacon Boys just got a truck late in the 2014 season and made 1 or 2 races, and i think there is one other truck just been picked up being worked on for the 2015 season. So leave well enough alone. We are getting there.

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[cardriver]

Problem with trucks selling for 3K, although it sounds good, it means guys are selling their equipment at a huge loss, which actually increases the cost of racing.

For example, if a truck cost 10K, but then you could turn around and sell it for 10K, that in effect makes the truck almost cost nothing (other than the money to run, maintain). You only have to come up with the 10k, and you are out of pocket 10k while you are racing, but you will know you will get your money back. That wouldn't be bad..

What is needed is a V8 class that costs an honest 5K to run. 2K chassis, 2K motor (obviously no 602), 1K odds and ends. That would bridge the gap from bone to V8. If the class fills and I think it would at that pricepoint, it should be easy to sell your car for at worst 4K, which means you only take a 1K hit which allows you to recover your money at step up to the next class. To me that looks like what could be done with your V8/truck class.

Resale value has become a huge issue out this way. Currently you cannot give away a Thunder Car, there are many on the market including past championship cars that are not even getting lowball offers on. I'm not sure what your 3K truck includes, but there is last year's Peterborough Championship thunder for 5K turnkey, no junk top quality car, easy 10K build, literally ready to hit the track, and its not even getting offers.  A soft market for equipment hurts, it turns your whole investment into a 3,000 lb paper weight.

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[kevilay]

As a spectator I enjoy watching all the racing at the track with the exception of enduro. The trucks even tho its 6/7 the racing is tight for all 25 laps. Enduro after about 15laps 1st and 2nd have generally lapped most of the field and it generally seals the fate of the race barring some sort of mechanical failure. I think if the squash them into v8 stocks there will be some good race. V8 stocks are fun to watch

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[McQueenRacing]

Problem with trucks selling for 3K, although it sounds good, it means guys are selling their equipment at a huge loss, which actually increases the cost of racing.

For example, if a truck cost 10K, but then you could turn around and sell it for 10K, that in effect makes the truck almost cost nothing (other than the money to run, maintain). You only have to come up with the 10k, and you are out of pocket 10k while you are racing, but you will know you will get your money back. That wouldn't be bad..

What is needed is a V8 class that costs an honest 5K to run. 2K chassis, 2K motor (obviously no 602), 1K odds and ends. That would bridge the gap from bone to V8. If the class fills and I think it would at that pricepoint, it should be easy to sell your car for at worst 4K, which means you only take a 1K hit which allows you to recover your money at step up to the next class. To me that looks like what could be done with your V8/truck class.

Resale value has become a huge issue out this way. Currently you cannot give away a Thunder Car, there are many on the market including past championship cars that are not even getting lowball offers on. I'm not sure what your 3K truck includes, but there is last year's Peterborough Championship thunder for 5K turnkey, no junk top quality car, easy 10K build, literally ready to hit the track, and its not even getting offers.  A soft market for equipment hurts, it turns your whole investment into a 3,000 lb paper weight.

I think the first problem I saw in your post was the use of the word investment hahahahahahaha. There is no such thing as an investment in racing. You are blowing your hard earned money to chase a stupid little trophy. That being said, I am already tearing apart my truck for 2015! Can't wait to see you all back out there!

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