Time for a new class?

[ministock19]

At the pumpkin smasher two weeks ago, there was about ten minis/mini mods and the rest of the field was bone stocks . The top 6 finishers were ministocks. So probably the best comparison would be to look at the times for the top 6 and compare to the bone stocks. Also the 19 mini was black flagged and it was a top 4 car.
 The short list comparing minis to bone stocks is better tires,wider rims,better suspension,camber,weight distribution.And lots more little things.

 If the minis ran as a regular class you would see the field running very low 22 to low 23 lap times consistently, if they allowed the same tire as is run at all the other pavement tracks.

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[Wheelsspin]

The bone stock times you looked at were from the pumpkin smasher were they smashed 200 pumpkins in turn 1 and don't ask me why lol . The fast  cars turn mid 24 sec laps . only 4 cars were true mini stocks the rest were dirt mini mods from south Boston and bone stocks getting some extra racing .

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[Racer123]

If you honestly think there's $10,000 Enduros (could be, I'm not disputing) that pay that money to win an Enduro race, you should agree that there will be $10,000 mini-stocks if it were a weekly series. Ever look at all the parts you can buy for a Mustang?

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[Dougy109]

We'll just say, I'm not looking to piss you off cardriver, but at the same time you shouldn't be spouting off about a place you know nothing about. Our track (when you come watch) looks like there's few spectators. It isn't a 1/4 oval, nor 3/8's. It's big, and most sit out in one and four. The track has rebounded successfully, and it's from two places. The teams who stuck in there, and kept rides going, and the track management. Both have worked hard, and deserve equal credit for it.

It isn't perfect, and yes the management will always wear a brush of evil in the competitors eyes. As for costs, in case you didn't read it correctly, I agreed with you. You aren't all wrong, in your clairvoyance. I call it that, since claiming to have only been once this year, does not give you an informed position. I do not go to your home track forums, and moan about what's going on there, since i've been twice this year, and three last.

As for physical fighting words, if you thought my jibe was to have a 'toe to toe', you need to chill. And no, like I told you last night, I am definitely not afraid (other media source). I do not hide who, where or what I am. I am sorry, if I chapped your ass, with what was a well thought out comeback to a guy badgering the rest of us that actually give a damn about our track.

Dougy Capp


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[kevilay]

If you honestly think there's $10,000 Enduros (could be, I'm not disputing) that pay that money to win an Enduro race, you should agree that there will be $10,000 mini-stocks if it were a weekly series. Ever look at all the parts you can buy for a Mustang?

Ive had this conservation with a couple people before. Many people think this, even when there is talk about opening up some bone stock rules. They say enduros have gotten out of hand we dont want bone stocks or ministocks to do the same. First of all these is huge engine displacement differences. I believe a stock 70s chevy 350 was around 200 hp. You can very easily build a 5000-8000$ chevy 350 and put out close to 350-400 hp. Thats around double the stock HP. This is what the enduro guys are doing. When you look at the bone stocks/mini mods there isnt really that much of an option to put money in like that. If your enforcing a rev limiter, even on a full built engine you might see 20-25 hp gains. I race vr6's and have seen friends build them many times, without forced induction they rarely make more 25hp more. The powerband is also much higher, which would just get killed by the rev limiter. As far as suspension, there is lots of money to be spent, however this is something easily seen and inspected by the tech department. This is why you often seen ministocks selling for 3-5k that can be competitive. No replacement for displacement


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[Dougy109]

One Acura, that has visited the track, is almost completely mechanically stock. It isn't a Bone either, and pulled 22's. It's suspension was done properly, and the weight removed out of it. Setup, and time invested were his advantages. Time is your own, and can be spent making it quick. Just saying it's possible, and feels awesome building something you can afford, and race competitively.

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[Racer123]

Yeah, then you'll outlaw Honda's and everyone will call them cheaters lol. I'm not saying you should or have to spend $10,000, I'm just saying people will, it's a fact of racing, no use whining about it. But yes, does make you feel that much better if you win in a $3,000 car.

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[kevilay]

One Acura, that has visited the track, is almost completely mechanically stock. It isn't a Bone either, and pulled 22's. It's suspension was done properly, and the weight removed out of it. Setup, and time invested were his advantages. Time is your own, and can be spent making it quick. Just saying it's possible, and feels awesome building something you can afford, and race competitively.

This is what minimods are all about. I do remember delaware saying they were going to add more open 4 races. Could be a type of slow implementation of a series.

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[ernie]

Putting trucks, SS and LM aside for a minute. Why do you need whole different classes for minis and bonestock? Some of the most entertaining races this past year have been the 4 cyl open races where there is a huge disparity in the lap times. Problem is the slower cars will never contend for an overall win. Why not have different classes in the same race? Kind of oval bracket racing. Enduros could do the same thing. That way you could have several 'winners' in one race depending on the car count. Guys could 'move up' without having to enter a whole different series.

Thoughts.....

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[Dougy109]

We did that with Enduro A and B, and also incentives for four cylinder guys in Enduro. One of the biggest things, were guys saying how much they hated getting passed by rocket ships. No one crashed because of it, and it did make for some interesting racing. I agree with you, but it fizzled out, and that was the only cause I knew of. I still think it could work, as long as people understood a pay strutcture, is geared to your different classes. Almost the same as Continental Tire GT series, but on a budget style. Like I said Ernie, I was one of the first to do it, and still don't know why it fizzled out. It was fun as hell, and was cool to pass some of the slower V8 cars.

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[ernie]

As a driver you would really need to know who you are actually racing against. Signboards would have to make a come back. If you are getting passed by cars you aren't racing then why is that a problem....except for your ego ;-)

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[cardriver]

We'll just say, I'm not looking to piss you off cardriver, but at the same time you shouldn't be spouting off about a place you know nothing about. Our track (when you come watch) looks like there's few spectators. It isn't a 1/4 oval, nor 3/8's. It's big, and most sit out in one and four. The track has rebounded successfully, and it's from two places. The teams who stuck in there, and kept rides going, and the track management. Both have worked hard, and deserve equal credit for it.

Doug, I don't own a track, such that I am not able to assert ownership over and claim as my (our) track. I think the level of ownership you have to call it "our" is the same as anyone who buys a ticket or runs a car there - same as yourself. Playing schoolyard games of I was at that sandbox first so its mine, don't get anyone anywhere. A new set of eyes or an outsider fresh prospective is great input for any business. I have run every paved track (including recently closed ones) in Ontario save for Varney, Sauble and Laird. My "home" track was whatever track I ran that night.

I'm not sure why you think I am running Delware into the ground such that you have to justify its size and attendance. I have not posted anything like that. My opinion is the opposite, its the best run track in Ontario. As for attendance, I know its very well attended. To put that into perspective, when I ran at Kawartha this year there were 47 - yes 47 I counted them myself fans in the stands. A track I ran out out east doubled that number. I am not questioning Delware on that level, as they are near if not the  best.  

Reasons for Delware's success, its extremely well run, its an excellent facility and it seems its in a great market. The pros outweigh the cons clearly. But that doesn't mean they can't make mistakes. In my view their class structure is very odd and overlapping. You have classes being cancelled (chaos cars I guess) and other like the truck with their future in question every year. I think that shows they are going down the wrong road. It doesn't turn the track into a crap track, it doesn't make them bad people, it means like every other person, place or thing not everything is perfect and could be revisited to further improve the place. Now back to the "our". I don't own Delaware so they can do whatever they like, they can run camel races if they want without my approval. What I have done is asserted my 2 cents, along with a counter argument in a forum for racers and fans, which the track is free to do whatever they like with, if they read it at all.

Delware has gotten lucky in some ways. Their excellent SS class is a complete freak of nature that cannot be repeated. A field of 20+ top quality cars, with younger and very talented drivers, without a weapon in the field. Its a spectacular show, but don't expect that formula to be repeated. Take the SS rulebook and the price it cost to run it to another track, and you are not going to come up with anything near what Delaware has. Sometimes in business you just get plain lucky, and can mistake that for the formula for success. Mind you if you analyze SS a bit deeper and consider why you LM numbers are lower - you might be able to come to the conclusion that the COST of SS is in the LM range such that you have teams and drivers with the resources and skill to run LM staying in SS. Splitting the same pool of drivers between two classes - while keeping a high cost of racing which limits the driver pool size. (all relates back to the earlier truth my friend)

As for you "moaning" about my home track. If I ran a track, or even if I was a full time competitor, I would like to know what I am doing wrong. If you are going to moan you are pissed off, I'd rather know why so I have a chance to correct it, rather than looking at empty stands the next week without a clue why.  

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[cardriver]

On the night I was there, V8 stocks and Trucks were on the bill with SS.

The numbers of V8 stock and Truck could've been better, the show was good because the drivers made it that way, but I couldn't help thinking that if those two classes were one it would've been much better. Having just one big class, rather than two classes I think would've made it better and freed up space on the bill for something like a SINGLE class of mini-stock.

The numbers to justify what I am saying;
http://www.mylaps.com/en/events/1043041

There were 8 V8 stocks running 21-22 second lap times
There were 11 trucks running the same 21-22 second lap times

Based on lap times, the two classes are equal with each other and therefor I can't see a reason they can't be run together as one. A class of 19 is a strong class, classes of 8 and 11 are on the weak side. Splitting the field in my view is the difference between strong and weak.

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[streetstocker33]

Doug, I don't own a track, such that I am not able to assert ownership over and claim as my (our) track. I think the level of ownership you have to call it "our" is the same as anyone who buys a ticket or runs a car there - same as yourself. Playing schoolyard games of I was at that sandbox first so its mine, don't get anyone anywhere. A new set of eyes or an outsider fresh prospective is great input for any business. I have run every paved track (including recently closed ones) in Ontario save for Varney, Sauble and Laird. My "home" track was whatever track I ran that night.

I'm not sure why you think I am running Delware into the ground such that you have to justify its size and attendance. I have not posted anything like that. My opinion is the opposite, its the best run track in Ontario. As for attendance, I know its very well attended. To put that into perspective, when I ran at Kawartha this year there were 47 - yes 47 I counted them myself fans in the stands. A track I ran out out east doubled that number. I am not questioning Delware on that level, as they are near if not the  best.  

Reasons for Delware's success, its extremely well run, its an excellent facility and it seems its in a great market. The pros outweigh the cons clearly. But that doesn't mean they can't make mistakes. In my view their class structure is very odd and overlapping. You have classes being cancelled (chaos cars I guess) and other like the truck with their future in question every year. I think that shows they are going down the wrong road. It doesn't turn the track into a crap track, it doesn't make them bad people, it means like every other person, place or thing not everything is perfect and could be revisited to further improve the place. Now back to the "our". I don't own Delaware so they can do whatever they like, they can run camel races if they want without my approval. What I have done is asserted my 2 cents, along with a counter argument in a forum for racers and fans, which the track is free to do whatever they like with, if they read it at all.

Delware has gotten lucky in some ways. Their excellent SS class is a complete freak of nature that cannot be repeated. A field of 20+ top quality cars, with younger and very talented drivers, without a weapon in the field. Its a spectacular show, but don't expect that formula to be repeated. Take the SS rulebook and the price it cost to run it to another track, and you are not going to come up with anything near what Delaware has. Sometimes in business you just get plain lucky, and can mistake that for the formula for success. Mind you if you analyze SS a bit deeper and consider why you LM numbers are lower - you might be able to come to the conclusion that the COST of SS is in the LM range such that you have teams and drivers with the resources and skill to run LM staying in SS. Splitting the same pool of drivers between two classes - while keeping a high cost of racing which limits the driver pool size. (all relates back to the earlier truth my friend)

As for you "moaning" about my home track. If I ran a track, or even if I was a full time competitor, I would like to know what I am doing wrong. If you are going to moan you are pissed off, I'd rather know why so I have a chance to correct it, rather than looking at empty stands the next week without a clue why.  

I think your economics are a little off.....ive run LM and S.S. at delaware and the budget isnt even in the ballpark,  and that wasnt a competitive LM, home built cars are still very competitive. 2 of the last 3 championships and the current track record holder weren't built on the jig of any of the big name builders and stock crates are VERY competitive and I dont see them at a disadvantage.

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[cardriver]

I think your economics are a little off.....ive run LM and S.S. at delaware and the budget isnt even in the ballpark,  and that wasnt a competitive LM, home built cars are still very competitive. 2 of the last 3 championships and the current track record holder weren't built on the jig of any of the big name builders and stock crates are VERY competitive and I dont see them at a disadvantage.

Maybe I didn't say it the right way.

What you are spending on a top SS is what you should be spending on a LM. A SS will be in the 15-20K range which should be where a LM is. I know the LM costs are equally out of control also, so you are pricing someone who should be in LM out of LM.

The 602 crate program is what you make of it. Tech has to police it, and if they are policing 602s they can equally police builts, which in my view defeats any advantage of the 602. You guys are light years ahead of the rest of the track by allowing Vortex heads on built motors.

If someone is building at home without a jig and is taking on the big dollar name built cars then they are an extremely talented builder. There are not many guys who can do that, not enough to fill a field of them, so for the class to have any cars the cost to compete becomes the cost to get a car built at the big name shops. I believe Chenoweth cleaned up a few years back in a Mike Poluton/Top Side camero, Mike being guy who builds great stuff in a 2 car garage. It can be done, just there are not many of those guys.

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