The future of 'stock' racing

[SSWebguy]

Just to go in a similar direction to LMS QUEBEC's thread regarding metric chassis, what do you guys think the future will be for "stock" style racing considering the available chassis to use?  Obviously four cylinder type racing is very popular with so many little rockets available for fairly reasonable prices, but what about 6 or 8 cylinder?

Glenn at Sunset tried to introduce 6 cylinders to his Thunders and it didn't take off at all.  Bob Deasy put together a Monte Carlo that was pretty sharp, but it had its issues keeping up to the 8s and reliability issues seemed to be an ongoing theme.  Electronics comes in to the picture as well.

Barrie went the other direction with the next gens and as has been mentioned they are getting more like challengers were.  There's nothing wrong with progress, that's not what I'm driving at.  But they do get away from the ol' get a Camaro and race it up (so to speak).

As racers and builders, what do you guys think?  What is an economical and competitive answer?

Mark

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[Thayne]

imo...

As far as I am concerned the days of racein' up a camaro are gone....now it's race up a 2.3...competetive affordable 8 cyl. racing is a thing of the past I think...the affordable class is now the 4 cyl's...

I think what barrie did is awesome and should be copied by tracks all over ontario

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[charger]

  i agree thayne 4cyl is the new street stock class v8 racing in bigger cars is going to only get more expencive as rear wheel drive cars get more scarce. might see more v6 stuff in the futer as a go between 4cyl and thunder/challenger.
dont know how it will be done but someone is smart enough to figure it out iam sure



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[Thunder6]

Hey Mark,

I do agree with pretty well everything you are saying. The 4 cylinders are in pretty good shape, and remember in the early 90's there was no 4 cylinder classes. You would have a "street stock" division, and then a "Challenger" type car and then LM. So in some ways 4 cylinder has kind of replaced the "Street Stock" class. Also remember guys that Canada is kind of odd running the Mustangs and Front drivers together. They run them seperate in the US.

I never thought running V8 RWD TC with V6 FWD TC was a very good idea... but it showed initiative. Same as the New Gen TC, but now the issue is getting to be the availability of chassis. Metric parts are always going to be around, but the frames were rotten in a lot of these cars 10 years ago and they went to scrap. So I think the future is like what LMS is talking about, brand new tubular steel chassis based on the mounting points of the Metric chassis. For me, today, $2000 is a lot of money just for the frame, no cage. But I believe that Metric Thunder Cars will be around for a long time. Someone should be cranking these frames out for $900 or $1000 and I would bet they would sell once the factory tooled up and the speedways all approved them. Bodies are not such a big deal, a complete kit is about $900 for the old style Monte, maybe about the same to buy a W body car and fabricate the New Gen body. You can put anything on the Metric...

I don't think there is another viable, readily available platform right now. Now maybe when we get the RWD Charger with the Hemi in the wrecking yards... Oh I'm salivating about that!


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[taj 2]

Hey guys, the chassis LMS has shown is buetiful, but a short trip down hwy 400 or 11 to csc in Newmarket and you can look at the completely tube chassis that they have had for a few years now with whatever cage you wish for whatever body you can dream of. If we want to keep racing these 8 cylenders, thats what a track is going to have to look at. When Barrie started the new gen deal, nobody wanted any part of it. Visiting the winter car shows and talking with track owners and promoters this past year we got a totally different response. The only person that was not going to allow us to run at there track was Glenn. Everybodyelse welcomed us with open arms. Thundercar racing is as popular now as the challenger series was in the 90's. I believe this is because these cars are becoming true race cars. To run up front now you have to constantly work on these cars, change set ups, try new things. % years ago, who would of thought about a big bar set up, or a 400lb spring, or running 60% wedge in a thunder car? With all the availlable info so easy to come by now by simply punching a few keys and clicking your mouse we all have gotten these cars from 18.5 laps to15.5 laps in acouple of years, and the fans feed off of it. IMO changes still need to be made, better braking systems for safety, headers to take a little more heat off our engines and maybe some more mandatory safety items like fire proof gloves and boots, and at minimum a neck roll if not some form of hans device. Racing come along way since we built the black and yellow #11 VW Jetta for $238 and won a bunch of races for 3 years and maybe spending 5 hours a week working on it. These cars look professional, the shows they put on are extremely exciting, unfortunately it has gotten very expensive, and its going to keep going up. The 4 cyl. are the perfect example, The first year of points at Barrie, if you add up the cost of building the top 10 in points, it wouldnt equal the cost to build 1 top 10 Barrie car, yet there has been no major rule changes in the division. Face the facts folks, if  Joe gets faster by spending $1000, then Ralph spends $1500 and so on and so on. Look at the 1980 winston cup champion 2 car and compare it to the 2008 29 sprint cup car, I think the Good-year decal is the same.

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[SSWebguy]

Awesome answers guys!

Charger:  That's kinda what I was wondering, if a 6 cyl "Street Stock" is viable.  There should be enough Montes and Tauruses n' such in the wrecking yards, but are they durable enough to run week to week for a whole racing season.  Deasy's car was built really well but they had their problems - brakes, overheating, etc.

Thunder6:  I remember around 1995 when I was at Barrie they started the original "Pure Stock", which was a watered down version of the CASCAR ruled Street Stock of the time.  Hell, that is when Gordie got his start in a huge square Caprice that dog-walked down the straightaway.  But, in with it's piers on the track, it was FAST.  There wasn't even a dream of 4 cylinders - Pro 4s (like a late model Mustang), but no off-the-street 4 cylinders.

Taj:  Speaking of "first gen" 4 cylinders, how do you think Terry's #98 killer Mustang would do in today's field?  Probably not near as well as back then...

I agree too - Thunder cars could become a thing of the past.  And they really do put on a great show.

Mark

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[Kahnefreak]

If Terry Nitzbon's #98 was out at the track today it might, if it is lucky get 6th or 7th in a Charger feature! That is how fast everything continues to evolve from year to year. It's actually quite amazing. Seems like the fast cars in the 4 cylinders and the Thunders pick up a few tenths each and every year.

It is eventually going to get to the point where the tracks will have to change to a pro mod 4 division as these cars will get too fast and to unsafe with stock parts in them.

I remember back in the day when I was a kid growing up and watching my dad race in the late 80's early 90's in the Street Stock class. Everybody ran junkyard motors did a tune up and oil change and away they went. Dad won many races with these motors. I would suspect that there would be no way to keep up with 2nd last place with that car if it ran this year. Dad was doing the same lap times in a Street Stock in 1997 that I was doing last year in my 4 cylinder Mustang. Now this said, Maybe safety should be a major concern in the 4 banger division. Those uni-body cars cannot take too hard of a hit.

I would have to say that in the next 2-3 years pretty much all of the thundercars will be the new gen style. It is the only way to go if you want to race in that division. Panels are becoming more scarce for the old style body's. It would be cheaper to use the new bodies and much easier to access parts. It has blown my mind how many different changes I have seen in my 25 years around the speedway. I think it will only get better. There will be more competitve cars out there as in the past when there is only just a few fast cars. This year there have been many different guys having their crack at running up front and it is great to see variety up there. I like where racing is going in general.

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[SSWebguy]

I would have to say that in the next 2-3 years pretty much all of the thundercars will be the new gen style. It is the only way to go if you want to race in that division...

Exactly.  It happens in every class where the cars just keep evolving - it's the natural progression.  I could see what Glenn was trying to do with adding sixes to the Thunders, but the natural progression is to make the cars faster, not slower.  And as the Thunders keep evolving to a "Challenger" (so to speak), it's almost like going backwards in time except with Four Cylinders replacing Thunders as the base class.

Taking the time factor in a race night out of the equation, could a new 6 cylinder division possibly work?  Could some type of 6 cylinder work possibly with the Fours?

Mark

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[Kahnefreak]

Well I do believe there is a division in Ontario that is called 6 or Less...not sure whick track it is. I will look into it. Maybe the rules would give you an idea if it would work. I am sure the would be some sort of handicapping done to make it an even playing field. I would say maybe tracks with only 3 divisions could try to bring in a 6 cylinder class. Much like the 4 cylinder class with rules just 2 extra cylinders. Pretty sure it would fly in some areas. I don't think it would work at the 2 simcoe County tracks as we both already have 4 divisions which fills up a race night pretty quickly!

If a 6 cylinder car races it would have to be on their own IMHO. Not with 4's or 8's.

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[Thayne]

the 6 or less is mosport...and mike meyer ran his stang down there last year and did pretty well....I am not sure what the future holds...mod-4's and challenger TC's i wld imagine...imo the way to go is what barrie has....nxt gen TC and the charger class...BUT make the A division into a mod 4 and let us play with parts...if we could put a suspension to the cars and build a killer motor we cld be definitely in the TC times, mayble late model...I have seen full bodied mod fours with 10,000 dollar motors and they cld run with any llm.

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[rossevans30]

Look building a 6-cyl Thunder car is just plain silly. They are side mounterd FWD, unibody with struts! I'm not even going to start with the issue with them, but it like trying to covert a shopping cart into a space ship. Its the same factors that limit mini-stocks.

Its time to bridge the gap between classes. Thunder has progresses to the point of Challenger cars without the load bolts. Heck they are almost LLM with steel bodies and no load bolts. This a a good and bad thing. For the good it makes for an easy swtich to LLM, thus making it a good farm for drivers for that class. The bad is that its impossible to take a guy without any track/racing expeince and get him to build and race a competive car. Thats why the numbers are low some places, and the is a huge gap between the top guys and the rest of th field. More track need a true street stock class, running 4-door crown vics, caprices and possibly trucks with STOCK rules. No skinned fabbed bodies, no lowering your floor/body below the frame, no tubular uppers, no lowering the drivetrain ect ect ect.. That is where you will get the drivers of tomorrow for all the RWD classes.

Mini-stock is simply not the same. There are many of us, including myself, that don't want to mess around with electronics and engine bays where you need to lift the engine to change the alternator. AS for setup I understand that you run reverse cross in those things. What are you learning for any other class with setups like that?

The fact that there are not GM metric and camero frames around anymore, is not an issue. The guys are already brining tubed cars to the track. The rules state that any part of the frame that need to be replaced can be tubed, as long at the suspension mounts are stock. It was one racers argument, that came out with a full tube thunder, that his whole frame was rotten. There is always a way. If needed one could take a Caprice/Roadmaster or a Crown vic and shorten the frame. Other option is truck frames, or s-10 frames, which there is no shortage of anyhow. Lots of guys are fabbing 90% of their bodies anyhow, so the frame isn't that big of an issue. Whats really changed? You can't pull a car out of the scrap and use it as a thunder? Well the way the class is now, that not practical anymore anyhow, even if there was a mint 88 Monte for 100 bucks....

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