Delaware's trend in big LM races, as of last night.

[Shadowracer]

Alright, so last night's 100 lap LM event is in the books, and I want to talk about that a bit. I've been doing this for a while now. Most of you guys know me and know that if ever I criticize, I do so because Delaware has been my refuge since I was a kid...that I love the place and I want it to be the best it can be.

But this one's going to be harsh. I'm bitter today. I wrote it off to heat of the moment last night, but today I'm

Just. So. Disappointed.

For those who weren't there, the race ended much like the 200 did last Labor Day, with 95 percent of the race being most excellent, only to turn monstrous in the last few laps when the legit racing ended and the officials took over the show.

The scenario: Great race. Great field of Late Models. 95 laps of jockeying, passing, pit strategy, battles for position...awesome awesome race. One for the ages.

But then a caution flies (legitimately) with a couple laps to go.

There's a restart. The guys take the green flag and roar into turn 1. No wait. One guy was ahead of the other. Wave it off - caution flag, couple guys stack up in the slowdown, clean up the mess.

Another restart. Green flag. Time to go. Except green doesn't really mean time to go. One guy is further ahead. They roar into turn 1. Call back the green and throw yellow. Another slowdown, another spin, another cleanup.

One more restart. Green...hey its really green this time. Third place car loops it trying to make a crazy pass on the backchute. Another caution...but hey, they were about to call back the initial green anyway because...you guessed it...one guy was further ahead when they crossed the start line. So the guy who spun...under green not yellow, gets his spot BACK....after spinning under GREEN. (Green meaning the green lights are on, which indicates racing is on...unless of course the officials SAY its yellow, even though its GREEN. In which case you guys oughta just forget the flags and lights in the first place because now they're just there for decoration.)

Then it gets better: The final restart. The green flag flies...but the caution lights are still ON. It stays green but the yellow blinkers don't stop blinking until the leaders have made it around to turn 2. To be honest, I don't know how much of a difference that part made to the outcome of the race.

Now...here's the best part: (It was actually horrible and awesome at the same time.) We've got two announcers, spinning the whole thing and making it sound like this is all just the greatest thing since the 79 Daytona 500. Oh yes, they're talking about gamesmanship and tactics and all that stuff and making it sound like this crap was the REAL key to winning at Delaware....that this is what its REALLY all about. We've got these guys faking each other out, brake-checking to keep the other guy off guard...all the while just creating more bent up cars, and doing nothing but interrupting a perfectly good race to give the announcers something to talk about.

So...maybe someone can explain this to me, because I really don't understand it. For years, restarts were never an issue. The pace car went in off the back straight. The green flag flies and the guys are on it by the time they hit turn 3. End of story. When the lights go green, the race is on. Green means go. Simple.

Why did we decide that wasn't good enough?

Then I believe the rule changed to as long as the polesitter (responsible for setting the pace to the green) crossed the start line first it was all good. It was the outside pole guy's responsibility to keep up with him. Fair enough...and green still means go.

But what happened last night, and at the 200 last September....I don't know what the frickin' rule is.

So, I leave you with this Delaware. You are the grand old lady of asphalt racing in Ontario. Our drivers are second to none and we owe NOTHING to ANYONE. When a big LM race happens here, it should be the best of the best. A big event worthy of a little reverence, where driver skill, mechanical wizardry, pit strategy, endurance and chutzpah should win the day. Our drivers are skilled, are the best there is, and are quite capable of putting on an amazing, entertaining show by the nature of their own skills and talents. We have been doing this since 1952 and have never needed to contrive shootout endings before. I won't say don't start now, because its already started, but you CAN stop it. Green means go...its the only rule you need.

Because this stuff....Labor Day and last night...fans are eating it up now. Yes, as they kept reiterating on mic last night...the crowd WAS entertained. No question on that. But the pressure will be on to create this every time, and that is a very slippery slope.

OR what you can do is this: Embrace it. On Labor Day, just scrap the whole 100 lap thing. Make it a 10 lap race instead. Don't make the guys waste their stuff, or employ pit strategy or endurance strategy, or really use any of their skills at all. We'll just do a 10 lap free for all, with false starts, lots of wrecks...should fill an hour or so.

It'll be awesome.

Delaware, I love you. I really do. That's the only reason why.

So there you go. Let me have it if you like. Agree, disagree, analyze, tell me I'm an old fart that can't understand "the new racing" ...whatever. Just don't be quiet about it.

Linkback: https://www.canadianracingonline.com/smf/index.php?topic=19784.msg111730#msg111730

[burbiotch]

As a visiting driver in the race, I don't want to comment on why we had to try that GWC so many times, because I couldn't see what was going on at the front of the pack.

What I will say is that leaving the yellow lights on definitely had an impact on how I restarted that last time. We took the one to go and came around to the back straight with the lights still on, so I was glued on the pace truck to see if he was going to pull off. When he did, the leaders started ramping up, so I started going with them, but then we came around the front and the caution lights were still on, so I backed out a bit, but then we just kept going. It may have cost me a spot, and apparently the guys outside the top 10 really didn't know what to do, because I checked my mirror off turn two and there was a huge gap.

It happened once earlier in the race too, but they caught it as we were going through three and four coming to green and they flipped off the yellow lights.

All in all, not a huge deal to fix, I'm sure whoever controls the lights will be on the ball now that it happened once.

Linkback: https://www.canadianracingonline.com/smf/index.php?topic=19784.msg111731#msg111731

[ernie]

Don't know what to say Trev (sorry didn't catch up with you again last night). After the second restart with two to go I left since I knew it would be a Charlie Foxtrot for 1/2 an hour after that. Up til that time it was a great night. The Bone stocks were great. The V8s were great even with limited numbers. The LM race was awesome til.....

Linkback: https://www.canadianracingonline.com/smf/index.php?topic=19784.msg111732#msg111732

[Racer43]

the restart procedure as I understand it is that the leader is suppose to maintain the pace until the number 4 that's painted on the wall in turn four. He can fire once he reaches that point and if he hasn't fired by the yellow line thats painted on the track the green flag flies. Once the green is out the race is on, none of this leader has to cross the line first BS. Green is green.

As far as last night went, I didn't see a thing wrong with any of those restarts. Jesse was picking up the pace a little early maybe, but in my opinion they were fine. It seems weird to me that the 200 last sept and last night both involved the same car. I guarantee you he was saying to himself you screwed me last year, you sure as heck are not this year and he drove the wheels off it many times to hold off the challengers....

Maybe they need to be discussing the restart procedure in detail at drivers meetings for invitationals?? There were some guys there last night that havent been in a while, if at all, and that may be an important piece of info.

As far as the spinning car on the back chute getting his spot back..... total BS!!!! who makes these ridiculous calls is what I would like to know? Seriously.... is Scott making the calls alone from the flag stand? Is Urlin up in the crows nest calling the shots? Is Houghton making it up as he goes along? Maybe one of the severs in the beer garden? Who?


Linkback: https://www.canadianracingonline.com/smf/index.php?topic=19784.msg111733#msg111733

[John]

A detailed post deserves an equally detailed response.  I read your thoughts with great interest, Trev.  I know your passion for Delaware racing and you’ve been around the track long enough to have seen all of this cycle through and around a few times.  I wanted to take a few minutes to address some of the things that came up:

The Yellow Lights

Admittedly: we glitched the caution lights on the final restart and we apologize for this mistake.  The issue, from what I can imagine, has to do with the tripping of a safety feature on the system.  On the panel there are four buttons, Black, Red, Yellow, Green.  When the green is out, any of the signals can be activated (off, red, and yellow).  However, from the yellow position the off button must be pressed first before the green button will activate.

Under normal operation, the yellow lights are turned off once the white flag is out, however in this case they continued to flash (pace truck lights were off, but the Whelen lights were still going).  Normally we would catch this (either the pace truck would see it or a tower official).  In this case, we missed it.  As the leaders hit the restart line in turn four, the green flag came out and I would imagine the green button was pressed: but the lights will continue flashing yellow until they go dark (which is what happens, they went dark and then green) in turn one.  The physical green flag was waving, but the lights were not displaying this signal.

I can only imagine how confusing this must have felt in the driver’s seat.  An error was made and we apologize for the mistake with the lights.  I am certain all race program staff will be extra vigilant on this moving forward.  It is the first time I can recall this occurring, and I think it’s the kind of mistake that only happens once.  Only seconds remained to decide what to do: call back the start (which the #25 and #10 had done correctly), trigger another caution and risk tearing up additional equipment?  Or simply allow the race to finish.  Just as drivers have only moments to make a decision, so it can be with officials.  In this case, the track elected to run the race to the finish.

A Word on “Getting the Spot Back”

This one was a complicated call, one that surely not everyone will agree with.  All I can do is walk through the logic of the call.

That restart was a jump start (on the #10).  Caution was coming out for this jump start.  As the caution was coming out / at the moment of caution, you had a driver spin around (with help from another car as well).

So, here would be the only question that matters: what was the caution for, and who were the accident car(s)?  In this case, the caution was ruled to be out for the jump start.  This means that on a technical level, the jump starter is the “accident car”.  Strike one, do it again and you go to the back.  The spinning car did not get designated an accident car, nor did the other car that was involved receive a penalty.  The track simply reset back to the restart order (running order at the last full, completed, green flag lap - - with accident cars (none), to the back, with a warning issued to the jump starter).  That was the call.

Regarding gamesmanship and track restart policy:

As a race fan, I am not a fan of restart gamesmanship.  We saw it at the GCR 200, we saw it again last night.  However, my personal feelings about what I would “like” to see bear basically no influence on how drivers run the race, or how a race should be officiated.  From an official perspective, they are trying to run the race as fairly as possible within the guidelines that have been set out.  Officials and announcers call it as they see it, not as perhaps we wish it was.

So when Spencer and I were talking about the games drivers play, we’re not suggesting this is appropriate or desirable behavior: we’re simply saying what the drivers are doing.  In this case, two top running drivers giving it their all.  Both front row cars were playing games.  More to the point, we’re also reporting on what the officials are doing: each got one warning, the third time they restarted correctly, knowing they would be going to the back if they played the game any further.

In the Wilcox era the green flag did not matter.  The leader set the pace and the green flag would come out towards turn 4, but the field was already racing.  The flaw here was that the field would essentially go green in turn three (before the flag stand was event visible).  This also led the higher speeds in turn one and more potential for issues while the cars were tightly grouped.

Later, the track adopted the double-file restarts and the Nascar Canadian Tire Series restart line, and later a restart box.  This kept speeds much, much, much slower entering turn one and essentially held the leaders from going green until just a bit before the start/finish line.  A rule was also added here that the leader must reach the s/f line at the same time or earlier than the outside pole.  This restart policy never truly “felt” right.  The decision was made this season to find a balance.

The current policy makes use of a restart line painted on the ground in turn 3.  Admittedly, we announcers, have not done a very good job explaining this one and I think it needs some time and attention on the air at upcoming events (or in the printed program).  Under current policy the front row must be side by side when they get to the restart line which is where the green flag will come out.  As Jay mentioned, drivers should not be accelerating before this line: this, in part, is where drivers were running up against the officials in last night’s event, by attempting to run the old Wilcox era turn-3 restart.

When officials have to make decisions, nobody leaves happy.  When drivers play with the restarts, it’s not the officials who are taking over the race: it’s the drivers pushing against the restart guidelines and forcing the officials to make a call.  If the officials let it slide, they’re accused of being inconsistent with their policy.  If they don’t let it slide then “they’re taking over the race”.  In this case the officials would have had one objective: to secure a fair restart.  Almost everything that went on towards the end of that race was a result or connected with this.  The goal of the track is to see the racers race it out following a fair restart (to hopefully prevent the race from being won by an unfair jump).  In the end, despite the glitch with the caution light, the final restart was fair for the two leaders who were side by side at the restart line when the green (flag) came out.  At that point it was a two lap sprint to the finish.

--------------

I hope some of this is helpful.  Last night was the biggest race night of the season so far on a number of levels.  We live, we learn, we move forward.

Linkback: https://www.canadianracingonline.com/smf/index.php?topic=19784.msg111734#msg111734

[John]

Is Houghton making it up as he goes along?

Although I occasionally help with pulling up a video replay, and have been known to answer questions about how we have handled things in the past: no, I am not a race night official.  All final calls are left with the race program.  The only time I "officiate" at the Friday night program is when interpreting scoring procedures and results/points after the event and during the week as needed in the event of a (rare) scoring discrepancy.

However to be equally clear: as an announcer, I am, in fact, making it up as I go along based on what everyone does.

-John

Linkback: https://www.canadianracingonline.com/smf/index.php?topic=19784.msg111735#msg111735

[Dougy109]

It was a good race, no doubt on that. The crowd around us was frustrated with the restarts. We can't see/hear all the commotion on an official level as spectators. We thought they were being a little too picky about the restarts, and that was a lot of people in the area. Whoever is delegating that, should learn if one guy goes, gets some marbles/wheelspins.. he still went in my eyes. Even NAPCAR lets some of these go now. Shadow has a point, it was rediculous. It was still a great show. I as well was frustrated at the end.

Just a side note. Pointing out fires in RF tires... Maybe your further away, but most can see it was quickly out. and was tire bead. These things aren't street cars. If there's fire in a wheel well, it's probably a minor thing. It happens constantly. Stop working up the safety guys, for nothing. Love the job you guys do... as announcers. Your officials on the track have better eyes for that.

Linkback: https://www.canadianracingonline.com/smf/index.php?topic=19784.msg111736#msg111736

[kcbc]

 Good read Trev and a age old question ? Where to start the race, back in my day we pulled the pace car off the back stretch and allowed the teams to get up to speed through 3 &4 (as long as they stayed side by side) to take the green off off 4,All was good with that ,until we installed pit road. Then some higher up want to see the pace car leed them around to 4 then pull off .That was all great, just ask the pace car driver that on more than one occasion got his ass lifted of the ground.He (the pace car driver) parked the car one night after seeing the end off pit road wall on two wheels (front two). Then we hold the pace down the back stretch while the pace car safely made it onto pit row ,and the cars held the pace ,all was good. Until some one new came along to run the show and here we go again with a new starting spot and THAT has been the problem all along,set a rule and keep it that way every body knows what is going on. No games just good racing........

Linkback: https://www.canadianracingonline.com/smf/index.php?topic=19784.msg111737#msg111737

[Ryan Fan]

The caution lights were a glitch I can live with that. The restarts I seem to see differently than most people. In my opinion Delaware did exactly what they should have and got it right. Kennedy is famous for his games on restarts and picking it up way too early. As a fan I am truly happy with what Delaware did by ensuring a finish that was fair. Kennedy would go in the middle of three and guy further back would get wrecked. Talk to the 5 LM about that. The last lap was insane and the race as a whole was one of the best in recent memory.

Dont change a thing. Except maybe put two lines on the track NASCAR style and make that a restart box. 3000 RPM under caution or whatever it is and the leader goes in the box no questions asked. That would solve your problem right away. If somebody goes before that box its a warning, 2 warnings you go to the back. Just a logical idea that would solve all your problems...

All in all Delaware has been packed full of excitement and people this season and the 6 pack series with LM and SS better come back next season thats for sure!

Linkback: https://www.canadianracingonline.com/smf/index.php?topic=19784.msg111738#msg111738

[Ryan Fan]

Also, just to clarify, I am not chirping Kennedy I love watching him race and I would do the exact same thing with such a grey area on restarts. If the track wants the messing around on starts to stop all they have to do is paint two bright yellow stripes across the track!

Linkback: https://www.canadianracingonline.com/smf/index.php?topic=19784.msg111739#msg111739

[Racer43]

you're exactly right Ryan fan and that is exactly what i suggested at the beginning of the season. Paint two yellow lines on the track and the leader can decide where in between the lines he goes. As long as he fires first its green, have at it..... If he gets to the second line and hasn't gone its green, have at it.

If they want to do it, I will supply the paint and go out there and paint the lines!!!!

Linkback: https://www.canadianracingonline.com/smf/index.php?topic=19784.msg111740#msg111740

[Shadowracer]

I've been reading with interest, and admittedly i didnt understand about the two line thing.

However, one question i havent seen answered was why did we need to change the old way of doing restarts?

Back in the day, before we started (wrongly) allowing NASCAR to influence us, we did restarts 1 2 3 single file then everyone else doubles up. Pace car goes in the back chute, we're racing in turn 3.

What was wrong with that? You alleviate the whole front row issue in one swoop. Switching to double file all the way up didn't add THAT much more excitement. It just made restarts more of a pain in the ass.

Or, another idea....if we're not big enough boys to follow our own lead, then why not borrow from the sprint car guys and go single file all the way down? That would also resolve the problem.

See, and this is where my point might be being missed: the gamesmanship is NOT the issue. You think Hanley and Biederman didnt play games on restarts? Jack Sharpe and Harvey Lennox, and even the guys that came before them probably had a bunch of tricks up their sleeves. Biederman coulda wrote a book the size of a dictionary on restart tactics. That's all just part of the wily racer's bag of tricks. Wanna win? Don't get outfoxed on a restart.

The PROBLEM is going green, then calling it off. That's the bullshit part. So if you say the officials didnt "take over the race" then technically thats true...they didnt. The guy who wrote these rules in the first place did.

If they want to do that deal with two lines then fine....I dont really care how they do it, BUT what I would like to see is a point where its go or no.

So assuming the current management will dismiss the idea of any single file stuff as being too old school (because, of course, those guys back in the 50s-90s were all morons who didn't know how to run a race) Lets see this: The starter has the green flag in hand. They guys know where the line is and that they have to be side by side when they cross it. (Whether that line be in turn 3, turn 4, the backchute, or in the parking lot.) If they are not side by side then the green flag does NOT wave, and they go around until they get it right. And once the green comes out, there's no taking it back.

Or is that too complicated?  

Linkback: https://www.canadianracingonline.com/smf/index.php?topic=19784.msg111746#msg111746

[Ryan Fan]

You need to relax a little lol. The sheer issue is that there is way too much grey area with the restarts. The restart box is the most fair, reasonable, and clean way to do restarts. It saves the cars a little because they are not full tilt going in to turn one where in the event a wreck happens, and it keeps it exciting for the fans because the new age of racing is double file restarts. Whether you like it or not racing evolves. Double file restarts are exciting for the fans and when done properly (WITH A RESTART BOX), they prove to be the most eventful.

I am with Doerr, I will also supply paint and go out and paint the lines on the track to keep this from happening. I stand by my word that the track did the right thing by making them do the restart right, even though they could save themselves the trouble with a box. Kennedy jumped one, Powell jumped one, and then they had a clean one. The last lap was absolutely crazy because the final restart was done properly.

Also touching on your sprint car idea: the reason it works is because they have a line they go at and everybody knows that line. Single file restarts would have the same outcome with the current Delaware system.

Linkback: https://www.canadianracingonline.com/smf/index.php?topic=19784.msg111747#msg111747

[Shadowracer]

You need to relax a little lol.

Hard to relax buddy...but not for the reasons you might think. Track's under "new ownership" this year (sort of) and I'm taking a hell of a chance by speaking out like this....I could very well show up this Fri nite and find the welcome mat all rolled up and put away because these guys might just feel like they've been verbally thrown under a bus...and sooner or later my track record and good intentions won't matter. So bear with me, ok?

(I'm not throwing them under a bus BTW, but I wouldn't blame them if that's the way they took it at first.)

So I want to make absolutely sure I'm being heard...and I use a strong tone because I'm afraid that if I don't, I won't get my point across and it'll all be for nothing. So please don't think that "Trev has just got something in his craw thats made him come completely unhinged." There IS a point here.

This calling back a green flag thing HAS to end. Period.

Look...if this start box deal is the way its meant to be then fine...honestly I really don't care how they do it. I try to use a little bit of Delaware history to illustrate a point, and I get in return "hey man...racing evolves", as if that statement actually answers any questions. Of course it evolves. That why I suggested the 10 lap Labor Day Shootout in my first post...because that IS one of the next logical steps in this particular "evolution"

And that is not sarcasm.

The problem with this "start box" thing is that, if I'm reading it correctly, the guy on the outside can still bugger it up and still trigger one of these "green but not really" things.

So...in the interest of "evolution" (because that's a good thing right? That IS what you were saying? just to be clear.) I offer this solution...free of charge.

You know how if you spin, then sit there and wait for a yellow, then when the yellow comes out and you merrily drive away? There's a penalty for that. Its called Delay of Race. Sorta like shooting the puck over the glass on purpose.

Well, farting around on a restart and drawing a yellow is EXACTLY the same thing. And if maintaining the race rhythm, or getting the race done in time is important enough to penalize someone for after an intentional spin, then logic dictates that it is also important enough to penalize for playing games with a restart.

Now, if you spin on purpose, do you get a second crack at it to do it right? No you do not. So neither should a driver get a second chance here. You mess around on a restart, bring out a yellow, you're going to the back...or a stop n go, or whatever the penalty actually is for race delays. It'll just take one guy to get that penalty and that'd fix the shenanigans in short order.

Assuming that this is a legit sport, that would work. And, like any legitimate sport, what's in the rules on the first lap, also applies on the last lap.

Simple.

See, racing is an interesting thing. There's multiple divisions to suit different styles, and different types of entertainment on the same night. You have your Super Stocks which when they have a big show its a slam bang affair of 25 laps, invert, do it again. Great, tough racing. You have your Chaos cars...and have at it with them. You want "entertainment", those guys will deliver...and the announcers can and should trot out all those little "are you ready for some chaos? and "lets get ready to rumble" tidbits and sound bytes...get some laughs...that's Chaos Car racing.

But Late Model is supposed to be the EPITOME of Fri/Sat night racing. It is supposed to be the top tier of what we do, and should thus be taken a little more seriously in the way it is presented. It NEEDS to be legit. It needs to be treated as a real sport. And it NEEDS people to see US treating it as though its a legit, real sport. That stuff in the last few laps last Friday, or the Great Canadian last year, did not go far towards legit. It looked almost scripted, artificial and the same sort of thing that NASCAR makes just for TV. There was no reverence for it.

Late Model racing is supposed to be MORE than just simple entertainment, and thats why statements like "double file restarts are more entertaining for the fans" grate on me. If "entertaining" is all that LM racing has really become all about, then by all means...run the races in reverse gear, around pylons, and with a jump over a great white shark tank. The sky's the limit.

I simply happen to think we can do a lot better. And if penalties, rule changes, single file restarts, going back to the old ways, or any other damned thing anyone can come up with can help us do away with "phantom debris cautions" and the green-but-not-green deal, then its a GOOD thing.

And as an aside, I find this really ironic: There were people on here a few years ago vocally and obstinately decrying the fact that our barrel racing/pylon dodging version of the Chaos cars was turning Delaware into a 3 ring circus that no one would ever take seriously. I just have to wonder how these very same people cannot be completely outraged at the way that 2 out of our last 3 "bigtime" LM races ended.

We CAN do better, Delaware.

Linkback: https://www.canadianracingonline.com/smf/index.php?topic=19784.msg111768#msg111768

[John]

I'm taking a hell of a chance by speaking out like this....I could very well show up this Fri nite and find the welcome mat all rolled up and put away because these guys might just feel like they've been verbally thrown under a bus...and sooner or later my track record and good intentions won't matter.

We typically (in the modern era) offer a high-degree of editorial independence to the program writer.  Beyond that, I do not forget seven years of solid editorial and friendship so easily.  The discussion is a valid one, one we read with interest.

-JH

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