Author Topic: RTR (Read 10834 times)

yaya · « **on:** January 08, 2008, 09:12:23 PM »

Can we all send Joe a big collective email and tell him that his crate motor rantings are no longer news worthy and boring us all to death?

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CanadianRacingOnline.com · « **on:** January 08, 2008, 09:12:23 PM »

Mobil1fan · « **Reply #1 on:** January 08, 2008, 09:20:45 PM »

While it's a big issue in the print media now, hopefully he's got it out of his system by now, as he's been going on and on about it for months. I can see some of his points, but to go back to 100% built engines would be as stupid as moving forward to 100% crate engines. Keep the two packages as equal as possible, and keep on top of teching the crates and things should be fine.

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justracin · « **Reply #2 on:** January 06, 2009, 03:38:44 PM »

The only thing about a crate that everyone can agree on is the cost.I think crates vs built is very simple. Tech the crates the same way as built(yes i mean you might have to open them up at the track) Do we really need sealed GM bolts or the Barrie bolts?Will the General have any bolts left in 2 or 3 years anyway? Now that being said(agree or not)why not argue this.Call the crate motor a spec. motor and have new built motors require spec. parts IE:built motors that use vortech heads must use this cam these springs this crank......ect....ect.Now some people might call that new built motor a spec. motor! OOPS now i guess we will have to argue spec vs spec.Now a new argument who can build them cheaper and more reliable ? THE GENERAL? OR YOUR LOCAL ENGINE BUILDER?

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CanadianRacingOnline.com · « **Reply #2 on:** January 06, 2009, 03:38:44 PM »

Thayne · « **Reply #3 on:** January 06, 2009, 03:51:44 PM »

u brought back almost a year old thread! haha I thought mobil1 was back!

but u make a good point justracin! Maybe spec would be the way to go?

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rossevans30 · « **Reply #4 on:** January 06, 2009, 05:13:04 PM »

Quote from: justracin on January 06, 2009, 03:38:44 PM

Tech the crates the same way as built(yes i mean you might have to open them up at the track)

I'm all for that... My built "crate" will the have vortex heads and .430 lift... I'm game...

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B.A.R. · « **Reply #5 on:** January 06, 2009, 09:09:09 PM »

I have a better more cost effective idea to crates-specs or built motor problems....

Bring and Race what you have...V6..V8..built..crate...spec....who cares !!

To police the deal each track can buy a chassis dyno and every car gets dynoed, then based on a calculation is added weight or taken awayto make all engines equal on horse power. Racers spend so much money making track owners and series owners happy by racing what ever they say you have to run.
One year its a spec motor...the next year a Crate motor...and the next year a built motor.

Its about time the tracks started to get a taste of what its like to spend money year after year keeping within their rule books...this time they buy the Dyno and racers show up to race, and if every track had one that means you could take your late model to every track and race without spending foolishly on parts you may never use again in a motor.

As far as sealed motors..the GM seals are now available on ebay....
So much for the seal idea !!!

Racing could be so affordable if racers all stood together and said to tracks and series, Here's our rule book and our rules which are the same coast to coast...
Do you want us to run or not...... case closed !!

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rossevans30 · « **Reply #6 on:** January 06, 2009, 10:34:45 PM »

Geeze BAR, for not knowing who I am, you just took a page from one of my past rants...

The dyno makes so much sence, that we can be sure we'll never see it happen

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B.A.R. · « **Reply #7 on:** January 06, 2009, 11:13:02 PM »

Yea I know Ross...something this easy could never be done.....its just to easy !!

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rossevans30 · « **Reply #8 on:** January 06, 2009, 11:57:38 PM »

As posted last time...

http://www.u2ndyno.com/pricing.php

Link to a company with a moblie dyno based out of Toronto.

I said pre-season have one practice day to dial in your car to the HP and get it cerified to that HP. Have the dyno at the track all nights, dyno the top cars, and a random pick, or impound the car and do it during the week.

Would save EVERYONE a fortune. Pick your HP level based on your wallet (or your stupidy) and lets go racing!!!

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justracin · « **Reply #9 on:** January 07, 2009, 12:19:30 AM »

Quote from: rossevans30 on January 06, 2009, 11:57:38 PM

As posted last time...

http://www.u2ndyno.com/pricing.php

Link to a company with a moblie dyno based out of Toronto.

I said pre-season have one practice day to dial in your car to the HP and get it cerified to that HP. Have the dyno at the track all nights, dyno the top cars, and a random pick, or impound the car and do it during the week.

Would save EVERYONE a fortune. Pick your HP level based on your wallet (or your stupidy) and lets go racing!!!

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justracin · « **Reply #10 on:** January 07, 2009, 01:05:55 AM »

sorry bout the quote....meant to put up ....."BRING DYNO TO TRACK EVERY NIGHT".... Well nice dream but not cost effective for anyone!Sounds to me like it would be paid for out of our purse.I checked out your dyno link and it said 12 hrs for a grand plus 30 cent per km,(thats around 750 bucks to say sauble)and you can only dyno 4 cars so I guess you could dyno winner of each class or use it for one class per night assumeing it isn,t rented by another track or whoever it is that rents the thing now. Anyone got any ideas how to cheet the dyno?Now of course everyone likes there own ideas and by no means am I trying to poop on yours but isn,t this idea almost attainable since it isn,t hard to find out what is in the crate motor(oops I meant spec)it should only take a few minutes on line. Alot of these so called spec parts are in racers shops now! "There are no bad ideas just bad results from chooseing the wrong one!" P.S I think one of the original arguement in favor of crate(oops there i go again) SPEC motor was cheep and reliable and that still holds true today.
Its just that the original deal was no one could get a better one than you because the general seals them which everyone now knows is bull.Open em up all parts should be the same give em a set of gaskets and see ya next week

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rossevans30 · « **Reply #11 on:** January 07, 2009, 09:36:08 AM »

Quote from: justracin on January 07, 2009, 01:05:55 AM

Its just that the original deal was no one could get a better one than you because the general seals them which everyone now knows is bull.Open em up all parts should be the same give em a set of gaskets and see ya next week

Justracin, you idea to tech crates isn't realistic. The problem is no motors are checked, so since nothing is being torn down, what makes you think they are going to tear down crates?

Yes INFORCING the rules is the best way to go. It will SAVE US ALL MONEY. But NO ONE IS DOING IT. So unless you have a suggestion on how to get tech to tech engines, and I mean checking out everything including the bottom end, then things will contiune as they are now.

Thats why the dyno is a realistic option. The prices shown on the page of the site I gave you are for a one shot deal. He'll tow it to your location for 30 cents a km. But if you are giving him work every weekend, he's going to come down in price.

A dyno like that is work about 50,000. If it lasts for 5 years thats 10,000 per year. At 15 races a year thats $650 a night!!! Dirt cheap for what it will save everyone.. At 50 cars, if you take $13 from the purse for all positions you've paid for the thing!!

$13 bucks a night, so now you can run thunder with a LEGAL $1,800 engine instead of paying $5,000 +++ to keep up, or even $3,500 for a 602. That will save a racer ATLEAST $1,700 to over $3,000 for $13 bucks a night!! and you call that expensive?

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justracin · « **Reply #12 on:** January 08, 2009, 02:31:13 AM »

OK if you do the math that way it does make sense but how long to put 50 cars through? every nite!Now remember I think my point was to tech all motors the same.Idon,t see any promoters putting up 50 G but i think most are willing to hire a class A mechanic capable of supervising a tear down at the track and I D ing the parts inside and checking to see if tampered with.If you ain't cheetin prove it! tear em down!

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rossevans30 · « **Reply #13 on:** January 08, 2009, 09:10:09 AM »

Quote from: justracin on January 08, 2009, 02:31:13 AM

OK if you do the math that way it does make sense but how long to put 50 cars through?

i think most are willing to hire a class A mechanic capable of supervising a tear down at the track and I D ing the parts inside and checking to see if tampered with.If you ain't cheetin prove it! tear em down!

How long is it going to take to dyno 50 cars? A lot less time than tearing 50 cars down and inspecting them..

The point of the dyno is not to dyno 50 cars a night, its to dyno the cars that place say top 3 and or would be selected for teardown. Its much eaiser and quicker to dyno rather than tear down. Plus the competitor dosn't have to buy new gaskets.. Which again saves $$$$$

All competitors would be dynoed once a year, or more often if they choose. It is up to them to meet the HP range, on any given night.

A class A mechanic will not be of any use. Tracks have tech men that know what to look for, many are/were racers themselves. You average class A mechanic will have no idea that an intake may be acid ported. The tech staff is not the problem, the rules and politics are.

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rossevans30 · « **Reply #14 on:** January 10, 2009, 10:25:01 AM »

Doug,

I welcome the laughs

First I never said dyno all cars every night. Just like inspecting all cars every night its not practical. A few cars a night, and all cars sometime before the season starts gets the point across.

Second the dyno as rented by that company, is worth 50,000. Thats the price if you check with the manufacture of the Dyna Pack 3000. Yes there is shipping, taxes ect ect so its a bit more, but it can also be writen off by the track if purchased. You might now argue that a 50,000 dollar dyno is not the most acurate. Well who cares, we need a +-10hp range here, not +-1hp. I can tell you in Thunder, there are cars that make 250 hp and there are cars that make 350 hp. We need to reduce that.

You are a bit lost about thunder 64cc heads and 9:1. As you know to make 9:1 with 64cc heads you need to run dished pistions, and not the "stock" one that come with every pre 90's 350. The closest you can get to that is the pistons out of the 602. This addes more expense to the build, as now you have made the rule so a "stock" shortblock cannot make the required compression. 64cc heads are expensive and hard to find REALITIVE to 76cc smog heads. Remeber Thunder is supposed to be an entry level class. If someone wants to mess around to those rules, like yourself, they should be running LLM, not thunder..

You are in deamland about building a $2,800 engine for thunder. Yes you can do it, but there is no point. Your $2,800 engine is going to be running at the back of the pack. You might as well pull a 350 out of some junker for $300 bucks and spend the difference on beer, you are going to be running the same place, at the back... The $2,800 engine will get you 20th at a full field invitational, the $300 motor will get you 24th.. Who cares, if you goal is to be field filler, atleast do it cheap..

And yes we do need a cam rule. It makes even more sence with your $2,800 home build idea. An agressive cam is going to respond much better in a $10,000 build than it will in a $2,800 build. Its giving more of an advantage to the engines that already have an advantage.. If you listen to Smokey he says the most important thing in a build is to match everything in the engine. You can't throw one part or component on, that dosn't match the rest, and expect to go fast. If guys BUILT TO THE RULES, simply dropping a big cam in, is not going to work!! For guys that have a full blown race engine that is dialed back by a stock lift rule cam, then its going to wake the engine up to what it should be.

Doug, all your ideas here are LLM ideas. Not surprising because thats where you run. But its not LLM, its Thunder. Knock the windows out and go racing entry type racing. Someone wants more, fine go run LLM.

BTW your West Coast story sounds a whole lot like what is going on around here...

Regards,
Ross

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