COT for 2009 Nationwide Series?

[hill3]

conventional wisdom is that the belt failed because of the way it was installed as per dale sr instructions.

Linkback: https://www.canadianracingonline.com/smf/index.php?topic=6909.msg35806#msg35806

[Mobil1fan]

That's what I meant.

Linkback: https://www.canadianracingonline.com/smf/index.php?topic=6909.msg35807#msg35807

[MID]

Hey Guys, You can beat yourselves tell your blue in the face but facts are facts.
In 1999 the IRL contracted the University of Nebraska I want to say, and were involved in making a softer wall for safety in Motorsports. I know this because I donated a car, a full blown Indy Car at a value of $500,000.00 dollars, and they took it, to crash it. They had run so  many test's that even NASA was shaking their heads, but at the end of the day they came up with a better wall which is now called the Safer Barrier. It took years but they did it !!

My Friend Bill Simpson took it upon himself to light his body on fire to prove he could make a suit that could withstand the heat of flames long enough to allow a Driver to escape, and at the test it was not such an issue of safety or awareness, but a joke when someone took a hotdog to the burning Simpson and said, Lets cook the damn thing !!

NASCAR was on the pace lap of intervention with regards to safety, and even though they were the last out of the gate, I don't think its fare to say it took Dale Sr's crash to make NASCAR stand up and take notice.
I cant count as high as numbers would lead, to the deaths of Race Car drivers from the first time a Man thought he could go fast and wanted competition, but I can also count how many times Racing Series have looked at it and worked to fix it.

The Hans device was a leader in Head and Neck Restraints and continues to be so, but there were many other manufactures long before Hans, that were working on the same thing.
Simpson get's blamed for his belts with regards to Dale Sr.'s death and I find that kind of a joke when you look at the fact that over 90% of the field had the same belts in there cars on that very sad day.
Furthermore its a bigger issue when you look at the fact that Simpson Belts dominated 100% of every racing series in North America and another 55% of the World ran Simpson Belts.

You Will never know the truth of Dales death, but I can assure you it was not belts.

Back to NASCAR.
NASCAR is not the Brain wave of Auto Racing, they just happen to be on top right now.
When F1 Drivers were being killed, was it F1's problem, or the Teams problem.
You can argue all you want, but it comes down to enforcing what you know.. whats good...whats safe... and how do we mandate it.

NASCAR doesn't make rules, they enforce them based on researching what is right and what is wrong, and although everyone does not agree with that...it is fact.

I personally carshed a car at Cayuga last year and totally screwed up my neck to the point that the Doctor told me I was 1/16th of an inch away from causing the same outcome as Dale Sr. died from.
Hell I said, we were only going 100MPH, how the hell would that cause the same damage.
Stupid on my part because I know better, and the HANS device would have allowed me to continue on with life as normal but instead I have to go for therapy 3 times a week at $75.00 a visit...
The HANS would have cost me $1200.00 and I would be feeling great right now- call me stupid.

My point here is NASCAR knew of a safer method, they knew everyone that races could afford it, and they mandated it only to get bashed by everyone that it cost to much and we don't need it attitudes...NASCAR STILL INFORCED IT !!

I hate when people knock a racing series because someone dies, knowing that they are spending a ton of money to try and not make that happen. I also hate when they compare Racing Deaths to what has already happened, as the next time by could be another's life. What I hate most is when people look at the car of tomorrow and say it is a huge cost for teams....
Is the COT Safer ?...Is the COT more in-line with competition?...Is the COT a better bet for the lower budget teams?..
YES                       YES                                                  YES

Don't slam the Door when there is no wall to hold it up !!!     

Linkback: https://www.canadianracingonline.com/smf/index.php?topic=6909.msg35815#msg35815

[Mobil1fan]

The only ones who were making an issue out of the belts themselves were NASCAR. It was only later on that they focused on the way the belts were mounted...

Linkback: https://www.canadianracingonline.com/smf/index.php?topic=6909.msg35816#msg35816

[MID]

Do you really think that
Or would you reply that NASCAR looked at the outcome and stated for the record that the seat belts could have been the issue... Politially correct when the only thing holding you in the car is the dam seat belts !!!
Insurance?  Tech?   Race Team?   Manufactures?   Sponsor of the Event?    The name NASCAR ?
....again...you will never know the truth, and the only guy that knows, is not talking !!!

Linkback: https://www.canadianracingonline.com/smf/index.php?topic=6909.msg35817#msg35817

[Mobil1fan]

NASCAR was on the pace lap of intervention with regards to safety, and even though they were the last out of the gate, I don't think its fare to say it took Dale Sr's crash to make NASCAR stand up and take notice.

I don't think it's nice to say it, but unfortunately I think it's the truth. If it wasn't the case, then how come there was no action after Kenny Irwin died, other than the restrictor plate? If it was out there, and 3 guys died within 6 months from the same cause, why did it take another 4 months to take definitive action, especially if research had been done on head/neck restraints before the first death?

Back to NASCAR.
NASCAR is not the Brain wave of Auto Racing, they just happen to be on top right now.
When F1 Drivers were being killed, was it F1's problem, or the Teams problem.
You can argue all you want, but it comes down to enforcing what you know.. whats good...whats safe... and how do we mandate it.

NASCAR doesn't make rules, they enforce them based on researching what is right and what is wrong, and although everyone does not agree with that...it is fact.

When the majority of F1 drivers were being killed, it was a problem with both the teams and F1. The teams were building fast cars at the expense of safety at times, but at the same time the medical facilities/crews and the tracks themselves were of low quality, unsafe or non-existent.
As far as what you're trying to say about NASCAR making the rules, I have no idea exactly what you're trying to say. It's up to NASCAR (or any sanctioning body) to create and enforce the rules based on safety, competition and cost-saving factors.

My point here is NASCAR knew of a safer method, they knew everyone that races could afford it, and they mandated it only to get bashed by everyone that it cost to much and we don't need it attitudes...NASCAR STILL INFORCED IT !!

Again, what are you trying to say? If it's pertaining to the head/neck thing, there was only resistance to it by (I believe) two drivers after 4 drivers died.

What I hate most is when people look at the car of tomorrow and say it is a huge cost for teams....
Is the COT Safer ?...Is the COT more in-line with competition?...Is the COT a better bet for the lower budget teams?..
YES                       YES                                                  YES

The fact of the matter is the CoT is a huge cost for teams. The idea that a team is only going to need 5 cars for a season (as you mentioned earlier) is downright laughable, considering you'll need at least 2 road-course cars and 2 superspeedway cars, much less short-track, flat speedway and banked speedway cars. In theory it'd be nice to have happen, sure, but I sincerely doubt the CoTs being tested at Atlanta today are the same cars that ran Bristol or Talladega.  Now, if you're bringing in a new car to the Busch series in 2009 that's close to what's been running full-time in cup since 2008, who's going to have an advantage on setup? Certainly not the smaller budget teams, and certainly not those who aren't affiliated with any Cup team. I don't doubt that the CoT isn't in line with NASCAR's direction for competition, but I do have doubts as to NASCAR's methods of controlling competition (ie. the dumbing-down of competition with common specs/mandated gear rules). I don't mind what I've seen so far, but looking at Bristol and Talladega, it hasn't been the magic solution for competition either. I support what NASCAR's trying to do as far as safety, don't get me wrong, but I'm not a fan of the splitter/spoiler combo NASCAR's using on the CoT. If they had opened up the rules around drive ratios and body points, combined with the new chassis, I think NASCAR might have achieved at least the same result regarding competition on-track, and with a car that's not butt-ugly.

Linkback: https://www.canadianracingonline.com/smf/index.php?topic=6909.msg35819#msg35819

[Mobil1fan]

Do you really think that
Or would you reply that NASCAR looked at the outcome and stated for the record that the seat belts could have been the issue... Politially correct when the only thing holding you in the car is the dam seat belts !!!
Insurance?  Tech?   Race Team?   Manufactures?   Sponsor of the Event?    The name NASCAR ?
....again...you will never know the truth, and the only guy that knows, is not talking !!!

What are you talking about? Immediately after Dale's death, NASCAR did go after Bill Simpson and Simpson Racing for issues with the belt and "encouraged" guys to move away from using them. I don't know where you were, but it was all over the press in the spring (ie. Speedway Illustrated, Circle Track, and to a lesser extent Winston Cup Scene). NASCAR didn't say anything about the belts being mounted improperly themselves (although Bill Simpson brought it up right away) until the late summer of 2001...Again, I have no idea what you're trying to say regarding insurance, tech, or anything like that....

Linkback: https://www.canadianracingonline.com/smf/index.php?topic=6909.msg35820#msg35820

[MID]

My point is there was nothing wrong with the belts regardless what you read in the papers. The Law suits were out in full force down South and that is what you never read about. These Law suits caused more finger pointing then a guy in Ohio trying to give you directions. What you read is what everyone wanted to hear... a result in findings...which was as correct as a Nun running for Pope..just isn't going to happen, although the bad press did kill off the Simpson name with Bill at the wheel.
The belts were loose prior to impact and the mass of weight and the G forces pulling forward did damage the belts,
but that was not the total cause of the outcome.
To be safe, NASCAR made a belt change before the next race, they also started the support for the Hans device at the next race. My point is there was so much going on behind the scene's that you will never know about, or hear about the truth  of what happened and that is the way the storey ends.
Do you have any idea on how many crashes that occur that cause death that are never talked about.
It's all part of the deal which protects the Drivers, the Teams,the Sponsors and the Series. If it is a no brainner they will admit it...if they have to look into it they will tell you what you want to hear.
NASCAR does a great job of securing the truth for those that need to know and for race fans they will tell you what they think you need to hear. It's a big business and when trouble hits, its dealt with professionally and ethically in order not to hurt anyone including the sport.
Sorry... but that is the truth. 

Linkback: https://www.canadianracingonline.com/smf/index.php?topic=6909.msg35824#msg35824

[MID]

Mobil1, I am only stating what I know and I did read all the same news you did in the papers, but that was not the news from inside the shops down south. The issue was huge because of the man that was lost, and the part about Irwin falls into the same category as what happened to Adam Petty, which came down to Stuck throttles. NASCAR fixed that by ordering the ventures lock wired to the upper portion of the intake end of the casting of the carb. As well, NASCAR mandated an emergency kill swithch on the Steering Wheel so drivers had a quick shut down option.

As for your COT issue, NASCAR wants the teams to utilize the same COT car on Super Sppedways, Intermediate Speedways, Short Tracks and Road Courses. In Short a low budget Team could get by with 2 cars, 1 on the track and one in the trailer for spare. The best deal right now is the teams just coming in for 2008. They will be the biggest winners as they are starting from scratch, without loosing money on current inventory.

Its hard to believe, but the COT will end up costing much less and that will be noted at the end of 2008 when everyone does ther books.  I hope you understand that !!         

Linkback: https://www.canadianracingonline.com/smf/index.php?topic=6909.msg35826#msg35826

[mech1]

dale use to run with his belts loose as he once said he feels less constricted
it was also written that  he installed his own belts in his cars.

it is also written in the nascar rule book that



Each competitor is solely responsible for the effectiveness of personal safety equipment used during an event

and that each competitor is expected to investigate and educate there self fully with respect to the availability and effectiveness of personal safety equipment.



Linkback: https://www.canadianracingonline.com/smf/index.php?topic=6909.msg35830#msg35830

[hill3]

first of all dale sr did not install his own belts, but he did mandate how they were done. his shoulder belts were mounted on the floor came all the way up to a bar thru his seat then back down to the five point lock. belts stretch on ave 20% of total length in use,one does the math and adds in a cut left lap belt it is easier to understand what happened. mobil one as for your argument about the number of cars for the cot,rcr did use the same car at dega and bristol. any safety item will not perform up to par if is not used correct. it is well documented that bill simpson had told dale sr more than once not to route his belts as he did.

Linkback: https://www.canadianracingonline.com/smf/index.php?topic=6909.msg35834#msg35834

[SRAMA]

Bill Davis Trucking filed for chapter 11 bankrupcy today.  The reason given is an injury lawsuit.

Would this be what Mid is talking about ??

SRAMA

Linkback: https://www.canadianracingonline.com/smf/index.php?topic=6909.msg35866#msg35866

[mech1]

How much can the  chassis really cost teams  to build, are teams not building them all the time anyways  there are just differant dimentions then bolt on the same old parts with a few new safety parts ,
 


Linkback: https://www.canadianracingonline.com/smf/index.php?topic=6909.msg35872#msg35872

[blaneyfan]

Bill Davis Trucking filed for chapter 11 bankrupcy today.  The reason given is an injury lawsuit.

Would this be what Mid is talking about ??

SRAMA

I wouldn't think so. Bill Davis Trucking is a totally separate business from BDR. I don't know the details, but  the lawsuit is against the trucking company.

 Nevertheless, I am hating this for Dave, sure a lot of unknowns all of a sudden, just when they look like they are headed in the right direction.

Here is the last I have read.
HIGH POINT, N.C. (October 30, 2007) – Bill Davis Trucking, Inc., founded in 1975 by Bill and Gail Davis, announced today it has filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection. Today’s action was necessitated by an injury accident and an ensuing lawsuit against the company, based in Batesville, Arkansas.

“This has been a very unfortunate chain of events and Gail and I certainly hate that it ever had to happen,” stated Bill Davis. “Bill Davis Trucking and Bill Davis Racing are two completely separate entities and the race team will in no way be affected by today’s announcement.”

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