Author Topic: Brian Thomas Finds New Home with oss (Read 8850 times)

CanadianRacingOnline · « **Reply #30 on:** January 14, 2009, 01:40:39 PM »

OK from a Racing Technical Dummy. Crates come from the manufacture and are cheaper and this would make everyone on the same level playing field? (Am I right so far).

the drivers would have to be more creative on setups and it would be the driver that can drive the wheels of the car that would be on the podium?

Am I missing something here?

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CanadianRacingOnline.com · « **Reply #30 on:** January 14, 2009, 01:40:39 PM »

longstreet · « **Reply #31 on:** January 14, 2009, 02:03:02 PM »

no you are not.

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rossevans30 · « **Reply #32 on:** January 14, 2009, 02:07:22 PM »

Quote from: CanadianRacingOnline on January 14, 2009, 01:40:39 PM

OK from a Racing Technical Dummy. Crates come from the manufacture and are cheaper and this would make everyone on the same level playing field? (Am I right so far).

Crate motors are a monster that grows when you neglect to enforce the engine rules...

Step 1:

Built motors become expensive because everyone is pushing for the most HP possible and soon the game becomes cheating the rules.

Step 2:

The racing begins to suck because the cars are spread all over the track because of the wide range of HP

Step 3:

The track brings in crate motors to "level" the field and keep costs down. Ussally giving an advantage such as better heads to the crate motors. Crate motors are "sealed" so the track hopes it never has the deal with the fact tech doesn't want to check anything.

Step 4:

Because the rules were not enforced in the 1st place, creating this whole situation, people learn how to cheat the crate motor, making the purpose of it futile.

In the end its a big screwup in racing. There is no purpose to a sealed crate. Make the rules the rules. For example in thunder if the rules were enforce you could build, or you can buy a 290 hp "in a crate" from GM, or a spec motor from any builder.

Enforcement of the rules or the lack there of, is all "the crate debate" boils down to..

p.s. The 1,000 dollar question.. If I were to build an engine identical to a 602 crate and have it inspected and sealed, does my BUILD then become a CRATE??? Hmmmmm futile eh?

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CanadianRacingOnline.com · « **Reply #32 on:** January 14, 2009, 02:07:22 PM »

rossevans30 · « **Reply #33 on:** January 14, 2009, 02:19:31 PM »

Quote from: CanadianRacingOnline on January 14, 2009, 01:40:39 PM

Crates come from the manufacture and are cheaper and this would make everyone on the same level playing field? (Am I right so far).

Am I missing something here?

yes Evan you are.. It seems "crate" engines also come from here

http://www.racingjunk.com/post/1197018/602-604-CRATE-ENGINE-SEAL-BOLTS-STAMPED-GM.html

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CanadianRacingOnline · « **Reply #34 on:** January 14, 2009, 02:38:52 PM »

OK so some people selling after market bolts. Couldn't something be done so you can't tamper with these engines? Bold are not the answer but in this day and age couldn't they put some type of marking somewhere where you open the engine but do this based on serial numbers so people wouldn't know where this marking is?

I used to put marking on computer products example hard drives so I could tell if someone opened it. I would line up a screw on the hard drive to face a label or writing on the hard drive and in the notes for the sale I would comment this based on the serial number. it doesn't show on the customers copy. I used to have a client that loved to open computer hardware he would brake them and return it and say it was broken. When he came back I showed him the comment I put on his invoice and showed him the screw I lined up and it didn't match the invoice location I marked.

If they are the same engines wouldn't they all produce the same horse power? I could see a small variance unless someone tampper ed with it and then I guess this is where the expensive dyno comes in. a track could rent on every once in a while and do a random test and if you are caught cheating you are out?

Yes I can see where it becomes a never ending battle.

Why bother racing if you have to cheat to be competitive or win?

I can see if you look for grey areas or something that is not stated that is not allowed in the rules. They might add it after they find out but that's not cheating. It is being creative within the rules laid out by the track or series.

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rossevans30 · « **Reply #35 on:** January 14, 2009, 02:58:54 PM »

No matter what you do there will always be someone who tampers with it. Nothing is 100% tamper proof. There is no replacement for phsically measureing to spec, you can't fudge that...

Same engines will have the same HP, and thats the whole point of the rules. Keep everthing in the same range for everyone. the guy who works harder and does his homework will allways suceed, but its a level playing field, or more so than wide open no rules. the rules can be adjusted so everyone is running the same thing (legends) or you have a lot of room to play (OSSCAR). Its just about setting the ground rules we all want to play by and the type of racing we want to do. You can throw all that out the window tho, if its not to be enforced.

Why do people cheat? Most likely it starts off that you cheat some just to keep up. Soon it turns into all out anything goes. We are racers, the goal is whatever it takes to be the fist to the green. For our own good we need rules to protect us from ourself sometimes. We are as stupid as dinosaurs, if not protected from ourselves we will make ourselves extinct.

Or no matter how much you want to beleive that BS your Mom and Dad told you.. "It dosn't matter where you finish as long as you did you best and played fair" really means nothing when you are going a lap down each week, only racing shadows...

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CanadianRacingOnline · « **Reply #36 on:** January 14, 2009, 03:10:13 PM »

I guess we are setting a bad example for the up and coming racing stars. I think tracks should band together on cheating. As people know if they get caught at one track they can go to another. It should be you have no place to go so you might think twice about doing it.

I have heard stores where a drive refuses to have his car looked at and leaves the track and are they allowed back after this? They shouldn't be.

Mom and Dad say it doesn't mattter where you finish if you tried your best and yes it's BS to some but you feel much better when you win and do it within the rules.

One day you will get caught and then how do you look and it haunts you for the rest of your life.

Look at all these baseball players. Great players and they might never get into the Baseball Hall of Fame. It is a shame and I hope kids learn from this they got away with it for many years and may have never been cheating their whole career but it's all gone because they got caught.

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charger · « **Reply #37 on:** January 14, 2009, 03:15:28 PM »

Quote from: rossevans30 on January 14, 2009, 02:58:54 PM

Or no matter how much you want to beleive that BS your Mom and Dad told you.. "It dosn't matter where you finish as long as you did you best and played fair" really means nothing when you are going a lap down each week, only racing shadows...

I cant believe this i fully agree with ross on this.

i think i need a vacation

(jokin with ya ross) but i really do agree

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rossevans30 · « **Reply #38 on:** January 14, 2009, 03:22:23 PM »

What it comes down to, is in days of low car counts tracks feel they cannot ask someone to leave if they don't make the rules... But it only makes matters worse. Because you keep around a driver who might be pushing the rules, many other guys are going to say screw it and quit. Leaving you with an even lower car count, and you are even more departe to keep all drivers, cheating or not.... Vicous circle...

As for being caught is a sence of shame? I can tell you its not. It hard to find out when someone gets caught. You hear it as a rumor, and thats all you hear as a driver in the class with someone cheating in the race that you were in. The average fan has no idea. I beleive one top thunder driver was suspeneded for a few races, meaning that he didn't get the championship of that track, but went on to domiate all other racers. In the end he's considered by most to be the top driver around.. I fail to see any shame...

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Thayne · « **Reply #39 on:** January 14, 2009, 03:30:26 PM »

Evan, it is a nice world you live in! haha

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CanadianRacingOnline · « **Reply #40 on:** January 14, 2009, 03:34:36 PM »

See if a track allows this guy to continue racing there do they tech his car more often? There is shame as other drivers always have in the back of their minds when this guy beats them was he cheating as he has been caught. Yes I could see people leaving if they feel someone is cheating so I think the tracks would be better off having some type of rule. Get caught cheating once sit out for 3 races and the next time you are banned. The problem is the other tracks would love to have a extra car in the car count but at what cost do you want to do it at? If the team cheat there they are most likely going to try it at the new track they go to?

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CanadianRacingOnline · « **Reply #41 on:** January 14, 2009, 03:38:08 PM »

Trust me I know we don't live in a fair world but does it make it right to cheat just becuase others are to get a head? I know at the end of the day I would feel good about myself that I won by driving the wheels of my car. Maybe I'm a fool but I never have the thought in the back of my mind I'm going to get caught.

Quote from: Thayne on January 14, 2009, 03:30:26 PM

Evan, it is a nice world you live in! haha

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rossevans30 · « **Reply #42 on:** January 14, 2009, 03:43:35 PM »

Quote from: CanadianRacingOnline on January 14, 2009, 03:34:36 PM

There is shame as other drivers always have in the back of their minds when this guy beats them was he cheating as he has been caught.

No, its a case of not wanting to be a rat... You either call him on it and protest him when you know he's doing the same thing, or you let it go. Sometimes its not worth losing sleep over.

More importantly, it very hard to protest someone, or critcize them for doing something illegal when you are doing things yourslef

Or if you call him a cheat, what does that make you?

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Thayne · « **Reply #43 on:** January 14, 2009, 03:45:37 PM »

Evan, the people that win ae basically all cheating and have to drive the wheels off their cars to beat the other competitors who are all basically cheating...haha

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rossevans30 · « **Reply #44 on:** January 14, 2009, 03:50:26 PM »

Quote from: Thayne on January 14, 2009, 03:45:37 PM

Evan, the people that win ae basically all cheating and have to drive the wheels off their cars to beat the other competitors who are all basically cheating...haha

And all running on the power of the thick wallet, or big credit card...

Not to say the guys out there winning are not incredibly talented drivers, but I'm sure there are equally as tallented drivers running at the back, or sitting in the stands, becasue of the money factor that becomes so powerful when rules are not enforced.

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