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Posted by: rossevans30« on: January 11, 2009, 02:26:06 AM »Building a motor for 2,800.00 to match a 602 crate is fairly straight forward, till you point out all the gotchas. Gotcha, nothing flows like vortecs.... Naw if you got good numbers off a cheap build then all the power to you. I'd be happy to see it tho. Ford is a different animal. Posted by: rossevans30« on: January 10, 2009, 11:23:00 PM »Renting is the only option - unless the OSCA buys one and then rents it to tracks throughout the year and then rents it out to OSCA members at a discount an non-OSCA members for a small fortune Now you are talking...  Posted by: rossevans30« on: January 10, 2009, 11:22:17 PM »Ross, Doug, You are showing why its so hard to keep up with any division except the one you run in. There isn't "talk" about introducing crate motors to TC's is a fact, and has been for a long time. Crate has been an option and Kawartha and Mosport for over 3 years now. This year the 602 is the crate motor for both Kawartha's Thundercars and the new class at Mosport. About everywhere except for Barrie and Sunset, crates are not talk, they are fact. Yeah you have a dare on your $2,800 build.. If you pull that off, its not what I give you its what every will give you. Save the bills and you will prove that you are the best engine builder out there and everyone will know it. I would say the look on a guy's face who spend $5,000 on an engine, to be beat by at $2,800 engine would be worth it. Hey you don't even have to build it. Post the recipe for it on here, let anyone build it, then not only will to be credited with having God like knowlegde, you will have also single handedly saved thunder cars... And when you say aftermarket, then you say "stock replacement" the question is stock replacement for what? Not stock replacement for smog headed engines, because that would push the compression of your 64cc heads to over 10:1. Either way, it gets back to the point if you allow 64 cc heads, you will obsolete all shortblocks with pre 80 smog head pisions, or "stock replacement" equivalents  Posted by: CVM95« on: January 10, 2009, 10:01:41 PM »My DynaPack 3000 (one above the base model) was $62,000. Did we note that this is $62,000.00 US Posted by: Paul R. Hooker« on: January 10, 2009, 07:45:09 PM »interesting talk about teching cars...with the cost of gaskets etc. and time which the tracks do not compensate you for to rebuild your engines (purses are not keeping up to cost of racing). has anyone thought of a system to handicap cars by weight acccording to there qualifying and run times in heats (in case someone is sandbagging) take the 7 fastest time and work forward and back 7 spots (run what you bring but you will be handicapped. and there is enough information (previous events) to establish a median time). from what i have observed at the races 3 years ago built motors were basically penalized over the crates now the crates should be penalized over the builts (check out the top 7 cars at most race tracks and how they finished and what type of motor they ran)
Posted by: rossevans30« on: January 10, 2009, 07:25:43 PM »a) Pistons in a built motor are always aftermarket. Hypertectic 9:1 dished pistons (or flat top) are cheap. About $300.00 Ban any other pistons like forged custom light weight JE, Ross, Mahle, etc.. and if you want, ban total seal style rings too. a) Not everything is aftermarket. Remeber this is (was) and entry stock class. Yeah for LLM your pistons are aftermarket, but thunder? Take for example the 290 hp crate engine, that was the crate for Kawartha and Mosport. Thats good good old GM stock pistons in it. Thats what this class is about. We shouldn't even be considering what hypertectic pistons to be using or gapless rings, that LLM stuff.. b) Why all these aftermarket heads? Why not just run 76cc smog heads. Its not $600 for a pair is $300 and if we all have the same stuff, its a level playing field. Again you want to deal with aftermarket heads, LLM is the place. If you really need to add another head, make it a vortec head. You can get those for the $600 price at the GM dealer, OR you can pull a set off any truck.. c) Cams - it dosn't get sticky here. Its simple, what you say about springs and lifters is correct.. Its also correct that the more money you throw at those problems, the less of a problem they will become. Again you are opening it up to the guy with the biggest wallet wins the high lift cam game. d) your $2,800 build is going to get KILLED by the 602. I know a 10K build will kill your $2,800 built but I was talking about your average these days $5,000 build. That will also kill your $2,800 built. Everything out there will kill it.. At $2,800 you are not going to keep up with the 602, and still make the rules. 602 has the vortec heads, you cannot build with vortec heads. No aftermarked heads eaither, and no double bump. So what in the world are you going to use for heads on your $2,800 build, to come anywhere close to a 602? Posted by: rossevans30« on: January 10, 2009, 10:34:32 AM »P.S. The flow of 76CC smog heads falls flat over .400 lift.... Considering 76CC smog heads are the rule many places, the only guys that get any advantage from the no lift rule are the ones running cheater heads already...
The joke is on the poor guy running at the back with smog heads, who thinks he'll take advantage of the no lift rule... While the guys that are already cleaning up with expensive race engine make even more power from the rule and pull further and further away.... Posted by: rossevans30« on: January 10, 2009, 10:30:53 AM »My DynaPack 3000 (one above the base model) was $62,000.
- Derek http://forums.clubrsx.com/showthread.php?t=619666&page=30 Posted by: rossevans30« on: January 10, 2009, 10:25:01 AM »Doug,
I welcome the laughs First I never said dyno all cars every night. Just like inspecting all cars every night its not practical. A few cars a night, and all cars sometime before the season starts gets the point across. Second the dyno as rented by that company, is worth 50,000. Thats the price if you check with the manufacture of the Dyna Pack 3000. Yes there is shipping, taxes ect ect so its a bit more, but it can also be writen off by the track if purchased. You might now argue that a 50,000 dollar dyno is not the most acurate. Well who cares, we need a +-10hp range here, not +-1hp. I can tell you in Thunder, there are cars that make 250 hp and there are cars that make 350 hp. We need to reduce that. You are a bit lost about thunder 64cc heads and 9:1. As you know to make 9:1 with 64cc heads you need to run dished pistions, and not the "stock" one that come with every pre 90's 350. The closest you can get to that is the pistons out of the 602. This addes more expense to the build, as now you have made the rule so a "stock" shortblock cannot make the required compression. 64cc heads are expensive and hard to find REALITIVE to 76cc smog heads. Remeber Thunder is supposed to be an entry level class. If someone wants to mess around to those rules, like yourself, they should be running LLM, not thunder.. You are in deamland about building a $2,800 engine for thunder. Yes you can do it, but there is no point. Your $2,800 engine is going to be running at the back of the pack. You might as well pull a 350 out of some junker for $300 bucks and spend the difference on beer, you are going to be running the same place, at the back... The $2,800 engine will get you 20th at a full field invitational, the $300 motor will get you 24th.. Who cares, if you goal is to be field filler, atleast do it cheap.. And yes we do need a cam rule. It makes even more sence with your $2,800 home build idea. An agressive cam is going to respond much better in a $10,000 build than it will in a $2,800 build. Its giving more of an advantage to the engines that already have an advantage.. If you listen to Smokey he says the most important thing in a build is to match everything in the engine. You can't throw one part or component on, that dosn't match the rest, and expect to go fast. If guys BUILT TO THE RULES, simply dropping a big cam in, is not going to work!! For guys that have a full blown race engine that is dialed back by a stock lift rule cam, then its going to wake the engine up to what it should be. Doug, all your ideas here are LLM ideas. Not surprising because thats where you run. But its not LLM, its Thunder. Knock the windows out and go racing entry type racing. Someone wants more, fine go run LLM. BTW your West Coast story sounds a whole lot like what is going on around here... Regards, Ross Posted by: rossevans30« on: January 08, 2009, 09:10:09 AM »OK if you do the math that way it does make sense but how long to put 50 cars through? How long is it going to take to dyno 50 cars? A lot less time than tearing 50 cars down and inspecting them.. The point of the dyno is not to dyno 50 cars a night, its to dyno the cars that place say top 3 and or would be selected for teardown. Its much eaiser and quicker to dyno rather than tear down. Plus the competitor dosn't have to buy new gaskets.. Which again saves $$$$$ All competitors would be dynoed once a year, or more often if they choose. It is up to them to meet the HP range, on any given night. A class A mechanic will not be of any use. Tracks have tech men that know what to look for, many are/were racers themselves. You average class A mechanic will have no idea that an intake may be acid ported. The tech staff is not the problem, the rules and politics are. Posted by: justracin« on: January 08, 2009, 02:31:13 AM »OK if you do the math that way it does make sense but how long to put 50 cars through? every nite!Now remember I think my point was to tech all motors the same.Idon,t see any promoters putting up 50 G but i think most are willing to hire a class A mechanic capable of supervising a tear down at the track and I D ing the parts inside and checking to see if tampered with.If you ain't cheetin prove it! tear em down!
Posted by: rossevans30« on: January 07, 2009, 09:36:08 AM »
Justracin, you idea to tech crates isn't realistic. The problem is no motors are checked, so since nothing is being torn down, what makes you think they are going to tear down crates? Yes INFORCING the rules is the best way to go. It will SAVE US ALL MONEY. But NO ONE IS DOING IT. So unless you have a suggestion on how to get tech to tech engines, and I mean checking out everything including the bottom end, then things will contiune as they are now. Thats why the dyno is a realistic option. The prices shown on the page of the site I gave you are for a one shot deal. He'll tow it to your location for 30 cents a km. But if you are giving him work every weekend, he's going to come down in price. A dyno like that is work about 50,000. If it lasts for 5 years thats 10,000 per year. At 15 races a year thats $650 a night!!! Dirt cheap for what it will save everyone.. At 50 cars, if you take $13 from the purse for all positions you've paid for the thing!! $13 bucks a night, so now you can run thunder with a LEGAL $1,800 engine instead of paying $5,000 +++ to keep up, or even $3,500 for a 602. That will save a racer ATLEAST $1,700 to over $3,000 for $13 bucks a night!! and you call that expensive? Posted by: justracin« on: January 07, 2009, 01:05:55 AM »sorry bout the quote....meant to put up ....."BRING DYNO TO TRACK EVERY NIGHT".... Well nice dream but not cost effective for anyone!Sounds to me like it would be paid for out of our purse.I checked out your dyno link and it said 12 hrs for a grand plus 30 cent per km,(thats around 750 bucks to say sauble)and you can only dyno 4 cars so I guess you could dyno winner of each class or use it for one class per night assumeing it isn,t rented by another track or whoever it is that rents the thing now. Anyone got any ideas how to cheet the dyno?Now of course everyone likes there own ideas and by no means am I trying to poop on yours but isn,t this idea almost attainable since it isn,t hard to find out what is in the crate motor(oops I meant spec)it should only take a few minutes on line. Alot of these so called spec parts are in racers shops now! "There are no bad ideas just bad results from chooseing the wrong one!" P.S I think one of the original arguement in favor of crate(oops there i go again) SPEC motor was cheep and reliable and that still holds true today.
Its just that the original deal was no one could get a better one than you because the general seals them which everyone now knows is bull.Open em up all parts should be the same give em a set of gaskets and see ya next week Posted by: justracin« on: January 07, 2009, 12:19:30 AM »As posted last time... Posted by: rossevans30« on: January 06, 2009, 11:57:38 PM »As posted last time...
http://www.u2ndyno.com/pricing.php Link to a company with a moblie dyno based out of Toronto. I said pre-season have one practice day to dial in your car to the HP and get it cerified to that HP. Have the dyno at the track all nights, dyno the top cars, and a random pick, or impound the car and do it during the week. Would save EVERYONE a fortune. Pick your HP level based on your wallet (or your stupidy) and lets go racing!!! |
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