Delaware's trend in big LM races, as of last night.

[Ryan Fan]

Im not sure what more you want me to say. Im unsure if your aware that I am actually agreeing with you 98% and stating the easiest and most professional way to resolve the issue. With a restart box there are a few simple rules required to make it work:

- Box is lets say 50ft long (between lines)
- Leader goes anywhere between them
- If he waits tip the second line its race on
- If the second place car goes before the leader within the box he goes to the rear and same if the leader goes before the box
- Green light comes on once they hit the second line

There is literally no downside to using this system. it will solve 99% of the issues your complaining about and give fans the even restart/product of racing from the restart they want while keeping it virtually even for the two guys on the front row and keeping the speeds down entering the first corner.

The tracks inconsistency with calls allow this nonsense to go on. Implement the restart box with those few rules and there is no way around it. period.

Linkback: https://www.canadianracingonline.com/smf/index.php?topic=19784.msg111770#msg111770

[Racer43]

to clarify the logic behind going green then throwing the yellow for a jump start.... If they didnt throw the green, half the field may go and half may not, which could cause some ugly pile ups. So even with the start box this would still have to be the procedure I would think.

The key point is the human judgement call that takes place when policing / officiating any sport. ie, on that first jump start call from friday night, after watching the video the actual start itself looked pretty even to me, however the 25 car seemed to spin his tires, giving the illusion that the 10 had actually jumped the start. Which is silly really, he is the leader, how can he jump his own start? If it was the location of when he accelerated that bothered them, then maybe they should have clarified in the drivers meeting where they want the leader to start accelerating. Jesse is probably considered a delaware car, but in reality has only competed in one regular night at delaware in a couple years. It is possible he didnt know what the current procedure is?? He did ask me that first night he came out this year "is it still top five to tech after the heats?"   

So, once again the start box takes away all the guessing from everyone. Put an official down there in corner four to watch the front two cars, its not that difficult to see if the leader jumps on the gas first or not. Still a human judgement, but if he or she is standing right there in the corner it should be fairly simple to see. Having the 50 foot box lets say, also gives the leader a chance to mix it up. He can fire early in the box one time and maybe wait until the second line the next time, therefore keeping the outside car guessing on what he's going to do. I to believe that the leader should have the right to play some "games" with where he restarts, he is the leader after all and has earned that right IMO. Thus the reason I dont like a cut and dried restart line....





Linkback: https://www.canadianracingonline.com/smf/index.php?topic=19784.msg111772#msg111772

[Shadowracer]

Im not sure what more you want me to say.

Anything....literally anything that ends with: "and that will ensure we never have to wave off another green flag EVER" would make me happy at this point.

But anyway, my deal is pretty much done here. I think I, and the others, have raised some good points. A bunch of solutions have been offerred up for perusal....some in the box, some out of the box, and some suggesting dusting off an older box.

Its up to them now...they'll either say "hey, maybe we should look at this" or "Shadow's an idiot....Friday was awesome." (Which i've already gotten on a couple of fronts over the weekend....but you get that when youre the guy who questions everything )

Either way, if they're thinking about it, then we've done our job here.

Linkback: https://www.canadianracingonline.com/smf/index.php?topic=19784.msg111773#msg111773

[Shadowracer]

to clarify the logic behind going green then throwing the yellow for a jump start.... If they didnt throw the green, half the field may go and half may not, which could cause some ugly pile ups.

Oh I understand completely why they do it. No question there. And you and I have both seen it happen...and its not pretty when it does. I certainly don't wish for that. Let me be clear on that.

But...I've noticed that doing it the way we're doing it causes a bit of that too. Invariably the leaders will slow up down the backchute, but for whatever reason it seems to play havoc in the back half of the field. It didn't so much last Labor Day, but remember there were only 9-10 cars running at the end. So it looks like 6 of one, half dozen of the other. One has cars crashing at the front, one has cars crashing at the back. Or am I off base on that?

I guess what I want to clarify about the below idea:

Lets see this: The starter has the green flag in hand. They guys know where the line is and that they have to be side by side when they cross it. (Whether that line be in turn 3, turn 4, the backchute, or in the parking lot.) If they are not side by side then the green flag does NOT wave, and they go around until they get it right. And once the green comes out, there's no taking it back.

Is that in this case the actual place they throw the green could be fluid. No reason they HAVE to roar off of 4 to take the green....just take that anticipation out of the equation completely. White flag lap comes, pace car drops off, flagman waits till he likes what he sees, then throws the green lights...wherever the leaders might be, and the laps start counting again. Once the green flies, then whatever happens happens. You don't need to be in sight of the flagman...there's lights all around the track and there's a guy in your ear telling you its green. That would take away ALL guessing by both drivers AND officials.

Or maybe that's just too weird...too much evolution all at once. I don't know, I'm just spitballing ideas at this point.

I to believe that the leader should have the right to play some "games" with where he restarts, he is the leader after all and has earned that right IMO.

Agreed wholeheartedly. The only place I falter and take issue is when those games are being used to try and fake the other guy onto blowing the restart, which is what I saw, not so much last Friday, but on Labor day last year. THAT is delay of race, and its crap.

Linkback: https://www.canadianracingonline.com/smf/index.php?topic=19784.msg111774#msg111774

[Dougy109]

Shadow, you are right, the restarts were silly. I do believe the 'Psyche out' will diminish, if penalties were actually enforced. Another point, is people are blowing it out of proportion. This as we know, happens here all the time. I/we have watched these guys compete for ages.. and know there was strategy (mind games) involved there. I/we as fans like that stuff, but only so much.

My suggestion (awaiting a flame post...) wold be to have it green means go. You try to spyche out the other driver, too FN bad. Restart boxes give too much variance. Have a line, throttle there. You don't go.. too freaking bad. We aren't NAPCAR.

Linkback: https://www.canadianracingonline.com/smf/index.php?topic=19784.msg111776#msg111776

[mike32]

one thing I like about dirt lm racing is the "Delaware" restart used by most major sanctions. (What an appropriate name!) This is where the leader starts up front by himself. Just seems to be less headgames overall.

Linkback: https://www.canadianracingonline.com/smf/index.php?topic=19784.msg111783#msg111783

[murray]

Every track in ontario has same issues...

Linkback: https://www.canadianracingonline.com/smf/index.php?topic=19784.msg111786#msg111786

[tigeraid]

It's all about the need to copy NASCAR to manufacture excitement.  I can accept the GWC, provided there's a reasonable limit to how many.

But double-file restarts, especially on asphalt short tracks, always end up being such a mess--the tighter the worse.  Now the guys stuck on the outside not only want to try and get the jump on the leader, but they're also worried about losing a spot to the guy behind-and-inside.  Which doesn't seem fair for all their hard work.

This rule works in NASCAR because 75% of their races are run on 1.5-2.0 mile crappy super speedways where the outside line IS the preferred line, or at least equal to the inside.  You can bet your ass NASCAR would never have come up with a double-file restart if their entire schedule was made up of Bristols and Martinsvilles.

All the restart BS would go away if they just lined up the top 3 single file.  Not only does that clear up the race for the lead on the green, it also ensures the cars that ARE double file are sitting, roughly, in Turn 3 when the green goes, so they're forced to race each other in a corner fair and square rather than trying to tree someone like it's a drag race.

Go back to single file, race starts when the flag man waves the flag.  Pretty simple if you ask me.

Linkback: https://www.canadianracingonline.com/smf/index.php?topic=19784.msg111792#msg111792

[Dougy109]

Don't be getting all high tech smart now Johnny 

Linkback: https://www.canadianracingonline.com/smf/index.php?topic=19784.msg111793#msg111793

[ernie]

Tiger I agree with you, somewhat. Double file restarts are here to stay and as a fan, with a pits background, I actually like them. Single file restarts the second place guy usually has to dump the first place guy to pass him on Ontario tracks anyways unless 1st screws up royally. I say we do the restart box deal and even put it closer to start/finish. Hell the finish line should be another 50' closer to turn one anyways IMO. If you want to do 1 - 2 single file I'll concede that but remember us diehards are not the ones filling the extra seats. If we were then we wouldn't have gotten to this point anyways right 

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[Shadowracer]

Only one time a green white checker is appropriate, and thats when theyre restarting with 2 to go. After that its green-checker, and if they still cant do it its a checker and a yellow thrown at the same time. 100 laps is 100 laps and 500 miles is 500 miles. Its not the "Daytona 500 plus how ever many miles until we SAY its over." (Or at least, it shouldnt be) 

Although to Delaware's credit, they havent sunk to the X number of tries for a GWC business.  I think theyre still sticking to the right number of laps.

I wonder how many fans of the "sainted number 3" even realize he'd have never won the Daytona 500 if they were doing that stupid GWC thing that year.

Just because nascar has no integrity left doesn't mean we have to follow suit. And besides, they only made these changes to pander to the newer fans because they'd already alienated all the old ones. Fat lot of good it did too....still pretty huge empty sections at those races.

But yeah lets do what they do anyway. Cuz history teaches absolutely nothing i guess.

Linkback: https://www.canadianracingonline.com/smf/index.php?topic=19784.msg111796#msg111796

[Shadowracer]

PS did i mention that green flag takebacks are dumb? Really really hate those.

I'd endure 100 GWCs and THREE-wide restarts if they'd promise to never do that again.  

Linkback: https://www.canadianracingonline.com/smf/index.php?topic=19784.msg111797#msg111797

[Ryan Fan]

Only one time a green white checker is appropriate, and thats when theyre restarting with 2 to go. After that its green-checker, and if they still cant do it its a checker and a yellow thrown at the same time. 100 laps is 100 laps and 500 miles is 500 miles. Its not the "Daytona 500 plus how ever many miles until we SAY its over." (Or at least, it shouldnt be) 

As far as Delaware goes they usually run green flag laps only... so when they do a 100 lap race they actually end up usually doing about 125 - 130 laps. The green flag laps only count rule is 100% needed also because when guys pit they shouldn't go a lap down, they don't have NASCAR pit crews. If the whole race was run under green, why would that change for the last lap? Althoigh I say once the white flag comes out the next flag ends the race. Iv seen a few times this year a caution comes out on the last lap and they do a green-checkered finish...

Linkback: https://www.canadianracingonline.com/smf/index.php?topic=19784.msg111800#msg111800

[ramguy]

Ohsweken has a way of handling "jumping" on restarts that I had never seen until the first time I went there. If the officials don't like the start, they move the front row back one row, doesn't matter if 1st or 2nd jumped. If it happens again row 3 moves up and so on. It seems to keep the number of jumps to a minimum because the drivers know that they are losing their front row starting spot regardless of if they are at fault or not.

Linkback: https://www.canadianracingonline.com/smf/index.php?topic=19784.msg111801#msg111801

[Ryan Fan]

Interesting, but if I was the leader and the car beside me jumped the restart and I was moved to third because of it I would absolutely lose my mind lol

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